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+--- Thread: Should bikes race in the wet ? (/showthread.php?tid=11879)
Should bikes race in the wet ? - Malcolm - 02-09-2011
Copied from Manx Radio
![[Image: manxradiomain.gif]](http://www.ttwebsite.com/gifs/manxradiomain.gif)
Several riders have been critical of organisers for sending them out racing in less than perfect conditions at this year's Manx Grand Prix.
One of them, Joe Phillips, who was second in the Supertwin event yesterday (Wednesday), said wet roads on the mountain section of the course were 'not fit for racing'.
After appearing in a chat show with Carl Fogarty last night, the racer turned TV pundit James Whitham said it wasn't an easy situation for competitors or the clerk of the course.
He said clear guidelines needed to be established to determine whether racing went ahead:
Listen To Related Audio Clip
.
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - George - 02-09-2011
(02-09-2011, 02:48 AM)Malcolm Wrote:Copied from Manx Radio
Several riders have been critical of organisers for sending them out racing in less than perfect conditions at this year's Manx Grand Prix.
One of them, Joe Phillips, who was second in the Supertwin event yesterday (Wednesday), said wet roads on the mountain section of the course were 'not fit for racing'.
After appearing in a chat show with Carl Fogarty last night, the racer turned TV pundit James Whitham said it wasn't an easy situation for competitors or the clerk of the course.
He said clear guidelines needed to be established to determine whether racing went ahead:
Listen To Related Audio Clip
.
NO[/size]
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - larryd - 02-09-2011
(02-09-2011, 01:04 PM)George Wrote:(02-09-2011, 02:48 AM)Malcolm Wrote:Copied from Manx Radio
Several riders have been critical of organisers for sending them out racing in less than perfect conditions at this year's Manx Grand Prix.
One of them, Joe Phillips, who was second in the Supertwin event yesterday (Wednesday), said wet roads on the mountain section of the course were 'not fit for racing'.
After appearing in a chat show with Carl Fogarty last night, the racer turned TV pundit James Whitham said it wasn't an easy situation for competitors or the clerk of the course.
He said clear guidelines needed to be established to determine whether racing went ahead:
Listen To Related Audio Clip
.
NO[/size]
There's no "black or white" answer to this.
Racing in the wet cannot be ruled out unconditionally.
That's the objective answer -- as to my own opinion, yes they should!!
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - ian charlton - 03-09-2011
We,re at the crossroads now with the power of the bikes,the twitchiness of the suspension,and the boating effect of wide tyres in wet conditions combined with quick changing weather patterns. As a spectator at the iom since 1959,the senior actually ran in horrendous conditions that year,i,ve allways applauded the riders for taking on the rain ,i never questioned the risk. As a father who now watches my son race ,i absolutely dread the rain.I,ve gone from one extreme to the other,my opinion in a debate would be a waste of time. A rider needs to make up their own mind and be under no outside pressure to do so. The organisers have horrible decision to make at times with the iom weather patterns,i certainly would not want their job and i respect their decisions.As larryd said,there,s no black or white answer to this,but i,m sure there,ll be a lot of head scratting to come up with an answer.Only the answer will not suit everyone.
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - ian charlton - 03-09-2011
We,re at the crossroads now with the power of the bikes,the twitchiness of the suspension,and the boating effect of wide tyres in wet conditions combined with quick changing weather patterns. As a spectator at the iom since 1959,the senior actually ran in horrendous conditions that year,i,ve allways applauded the riders for taking on the rain ,i never questioned the risk. As a father who now watches my son race ,i absolutely dread the rain.I,ve gone from one extreme to the other,my opinion in a debate would be a waste of time. A rider needs to make up their own mind and be under no outside pressure to do so. The organisers have horrible decision to make at times with the iom weather patterns,i certainly would not want their job and i respect their decisions.As larryd said,there,s no black or white answer to this,but i,m sure there,ll be a lot of head scratting to come up with an answer.Only the answer will not suit everyone.
Sorry,pressed the button twice
Sorry,pressed the button twice
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - George - 03-09-2011
The riders and the meeting have to take out insurances, and who's to say that the insurance companies could or would reject an insurance claim in the event of an accident in a race run in conditions the insurance provider see as unfit. The problem is that the riders have spent a lot of time and money getting to the Isle of Man races and their judgments to race in poor conditions may be made with their hearts and not their heads.
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - ian charlton - 03-09-2011
In my mind there,s only one fair and just solution. The bikes and riders are in the parc ferme just prior to racing. Take up a sheet of paper with 3 coloums, DO you want to race. Yes,no or abstain. The majority have decided,reducing pressure all round. No numbers or identification,although most i am sure would stand by their feelings,.For a delay or whatever. What i do feel 100% is that there is a severe lack of practice time available to overcome problems and maybe test in varied conditions.I,d like to know the thoughts of Ian Huntly and Nick Jeffries.who have seen the high and lows from both sides of the fence,with years of experience and commitment,but it,s really too delicate at present. At the beginning and end of the day,WE,RE ALL ADDICTED.
In my mind there,s only one fair and just solution. The bikes and riders are in the parc ferme just prior to racing. Take up a sheet of paper with 3 coloums, DO you want to race. Yes,no or abstain. The majority have decided,reducing pressure all round. No numbers or identification,although most i am sure would stand by their feelings,.For a delay or whatever. What i do feel 100% is that there is a severe lack of practice time available to overcome problems and maybe test in varied conditions.I,d like to know the thoughts of Ian Huntly and Nick Jeffries.who have seen the high and lows from both sides of the fence,with years of experience and commitment,but it,s really too delicate at present. At the beginning and end of the day,WE,RE ALL ADDICTED.
Can anyone tell me why posts double up,i,m feeling stupid now
Can anyone tell me why posts double up,i,m feeling stupid now
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - ian huntly - 03-09-2011
I have taken a while to mull this question over....
I too have attended TT Races where they have raced in rain, heavy rain and even hailstones. People fell off and one famous rider kicked his machine back into shape and contnued on to win. Another arrived at the finish so frozen he had to have his hands warmed before his fingers would re-open, his bike fairing paint chipped off by the hailstones.
But these were the OLDEN days...........................
My main thought has come from the part of my brain which deals with tyres. Tyre development should be taking into account wet surfaces and if a race is declared a wet race by travelling marshals, the COC AND a riders rep who is an ex-racer, these wet race tyres must be fitted or the race postponed.
However a 37+ mile course can have a whole season of weather conditions throughout a lap so one tyre may not fit every situation.
Looking at the situation in the cold light of dawn, I feel that accidents should be looked into much more deeply, to see if the weather conditions really played a major part in the cause. Riders crash in good weather as well....
Everything MUST be done to keep everybody ALIVE at the end of each race......We can no longer qualify these deaths by saying "EEE, they were doing what they wanted to do"...Dying was not part of the wish..
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - ian charlton - 03-09-2011
Thanks Ian. 1965-1959,i stood in the finisher,s enclosure both times,i feel sure your reference was to these races. I have a small b/w photo of John being held upright,loss of feeling to his limbs. Hard but happy days.
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - Chris Maybury - 03-09-2011
I can remember sidecar outfits circulating in heavy rain and throwing up spray looking like speed boats
.As Ian has reminded us, the mountain course is so varied that no one can be sure of the weather even 15 minutes ahead.
Diverting slightly from the thread's question, what ever the outcome of the above debate, I still am in favour of returning to the old separate "Oil Flag" and "Rain Flag" system rather than the "Lack of Ahesion Flag" that now covers both hazards.
I am not a racer but experienced riders have confirmed to me that there is a big difference in adhesion between oil and water, even when using modern rain tyres. Mind you, I accept that an oil spill should be preceeded by a Yellow until cleared up.
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - Manx Mist - 03-09-2011
We had a debate on another site about this after the debacle at this years TT.
Here's my opinion at the time, and I still feel the same way............
I can see both sides of this, as an ex rider and as an ex official.
Its time for the TT organisers and riders to sit down together and decide once and for all whether or not we run on wet or damp roads.
If its a 'NO' then thats the rule and we stick to it, no 'ifs' no 'buts' in a situation such as today a couple of those freeloader course cars should be despatched carrying people who can make a objective decision such as McG, Donald, Lougher, Guy etc (not a load of mister important nobodies out for a pose) this should happen one hour before the race and their decision after the lap is then upheld, or voted on if opinion is split as to whether they class it as 'dry' or not.
If its a 'YES' then the teams must come prepared with softer compound tyres on hand and maybe even wets, although i've always been of the opinion that if its wet enough for full wets, its going to be a 'no go' on visibility anyway.
If its a 'YES' to riding on wet roads then we go to the same rule as short circuits and declare a race to be dry or wet.
If we declare a dry race and it rains we will stop it, if we declare a wet race we will carry on unless visibility or standing water causes problems.
If it is a wet race and you have taken a wrong tyre gamble then its up to you to stop.
At the end of the day its up to the riders and organisers to thrash this out once and for all, its also up to the riders how fast they want to go in less than perfect conditions.
Thats my tuppence worth anyway
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - ian charlton - 03-09-2011
And that tuppence was very well spent,well thought out.
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - George - 03-09-2011
Your all missing the point, they dont call a wet race at the MGP, if they did you would be allowed to use full wets, as the regs stand full wet tyres are not permited at the MGP. Also giving riders/teams only 15/20 mins notice to make any changes is not long enough.
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - Manx Mist - 03-09-2011
(03-09-2011, 10:30 PM)George Wrote: Your all missing the point, they dont call a wet race at the MGP, if they did you would be allowed to use full wets, as the regs stand full wet tyres are not permited at the MGP. Also giving riders/teams only 15/20 mins notice to make any changes is not long enough.
As I said in my earlier post, in my experience, given the unique nature of the TT course, if its wet enough to warrant full wets it is most likely to be a no go situation with visibility anyway, if it isnt wet enough for full wets they would be sh*gged by Ballaugh or earlier, I havent studied the regs but I guess that the latter problem is the reason why they are not currently permitted.
There are however different compounds and patterns of intermediates available, most riders choose the ones with the lightest pattern and fat profile for obvious reasons, less tread flex and more rubber on the road.
But when the weather is less than perfect a deeper tread pattern and sharper profile will generally displace water far better.
My suggestion was that these tyres are used as a wet option, but we would be talking of a different 'wet race' definition at the TT or MGP, if its sheeting down I wouldnt expect a race to start, but the situation which needs addressing is the wet patches, rain dripping off trees in various places scenario which seems to be causing the problems.
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - George - 03-09-2011
If you take a look at the video posted you will see it was Fecking wet, not just damp patches
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - ammo - 04-09-2011
(02-09-2011, 02:48 AM)Malcolm Wrote:Copied from Manx Radio
Several riders have been critical of organisers for sending them out racing in less than perfect conditions at this year's Manx Grand Prix.
One of them, Joe Phillips, who was second in the Supertwin event yesterday (Wednesday), said wet roads on the mountain section of the course were 'not fit for racing'.
After appearing in a chat show with Carl Fogarty last night, the racer turned TV pundit James Whitham said it wasn't an easy situation for competitors or the clerk of the course.
He said clear guidelines needed to be established to determine whether racing went ahead:
Listen To Related Audio Clip
.
As we live in "The British Isles" I would say we should expect to race in the wet unless someone invents a magic wand to control the weather.
(03-09-2011, 10:30 PM)George Wrote: Your all missing the point, they dont call a wet race at the MGP, if they did you would be allowed to use full wets, as the regs stand full wet tyres are not permited at the MGP. Also giving riders/teams only 15/20 mins notice to make any changes is not long enough.
You cant use slicks at the MGP but Im not aware of any rule that says you cant use wets.
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - George - 04-09-2011
(04-09-2011, 06:18 AM)ammo Wrote:(02-09-2011, 02:48 AM)Malcolm Wrote:Copied from Manx Radio
Several riders have been critical of organisers for sending them out racing in less than perfect conditions at this year's Manx Grand Prix.
One of them, Joe Phillips, who was second in the Supertwin event yesterday (Wednesday), said wet roads on the mountain section of the course were 'not fit for racing'.
After appearing in a chat show with Carl Fogarty last night, the racer turned TV pundit James Whitham said it wasn't an easy situation for competitors or the clerk of the course.
He said clear guidelines needed to be established to determine whether racing went ahead:
Listen To Related Audio Clip
.
As we live in "The British Isles" I would say we should expect to race in the wet unless someone invents a magic wand to control the weather.
(03-09-2011, 10:30 PM)George Wrote: Your all missing the point, they dont call a wet race at the MGP, if they did you would be allowed to use full wets, as the regs stand full wet tyres are not permited at the MGP. Also giving riders/teams only 15/20 mins notice to make any changes is not long enough.
You cant use slicks at the MGP but Im not aware of any rule that says you cant use wets.
You cant, inters yes
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - larryd - 05-09-2011
(03-09-2011, 10:30 PM)George Wrote: Your all missing the point, they dont call a wet race at the MGP, if they did you would be allowed to use full wets, as the regs stand full wet tyres are not permited at the MGP. Also giving riders/teams only 15/20 mins notice to make any changes is not long enough.
You cant use slicks at the MGP but Im not aware of any rule that says you cant use wets.
[/quote]
You cant, inters yes
[/quote]
George:
You are, as usual, talking absolute tripe.
The Manx Grand Prix tyre rule requires only that tyres with a moulded tread pattern may be used.
This rule has remained unchanged, as I understand it, since I last rode in the MGP in 1982.
So -- wets are no problem although, of course, cut slicks are out!
As an example, consider Pirellli.
They can supply moulded patterned tyres in dry, wet and rain variants.
I believe that even their wet is good for 4 Mountain laps in the dry, while of course the dry will be fine even where there are occasional damp patches.
The "rain" Pirelli doesn't come into it since, if the course is wet enough all round to justify its use, then conditions will likely be such that the choppers won't fly - so no race anyway.
Larry Devlin
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - George - 05-09-2011
(05-09-2011, 01:22 PM)larryd Wrote:(03-09-2011, 10:30 PM)George Wrote: Your all missing the point, they dont call a wet race at the MGP, if they did you would be allowed to use full wets, as the regs stand full wet tyres are not permited at the MGP. Also giving riders/teams only 15/20 mins notice to make any changes is not long enough.
You cant use slicks at the MGP but Im not aware of any rule that says you cant use wets.
You cant, inters yes
[/quote]
George:
You are, as usual, talking absolute tripe.
The Manx Grand Prix tyre rule requires only that tyres with a moulded tread pattern may be used.
This rule has remained unchanged, as I understand it, since I last rode in the MGP in 1982.
So -- wets are no problem although, of course, cut slicks are out!
As an example, consider Pirellli.
They can supply moulded patterned tyres in dry, wet and rain variants.
I believe that even their wet is good for 4 Mountain laps in the dry, while of course the dry will be fine even where there are occasional damp patches.
The "rain" Pirelli doesn't come into it since, if the course is wet enough all round to justify its use, then conditions will likely be such that the choppers won't fly - so no race anyway. Is this last bit in Irish, one minute your saying wets will do four laps and then move the goal posts. Do Pireli do a MIST/Fog Tyre now, Wow.
Larry Devlin
[/quote]
Utter load of Tosh. Re Read the regs. ??? a Pireli full wet will not do two dry laps never mind 4, what planet you live on
From the regs which have been applied to all machines for many years.
Tyres
No hand cut slicks or wet weather tyres will be permitted. Maximum tyre width, as stated on the manufacturer’s specification sheet, shall be 4.50” for Classic machines
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - Jeff Kirby - 05-09-2011
George
I don't get involved with arguments about regulations but you owe Larry an apology!
APPENDIX I - APPLICABLE TO ALL MACHINES
1 TYRES
Owing to variations in weather conditions which can occur on the TT Course and in the interests of safety, only tyres having a moulded tread pattern will be permitted. No additional cutting of moulded tyres will be permitted. No slicks, cut or uncut, will be allowed. Metal valve caps (not extractor type) must be fitted. Valves must be of the short stub stem type.
APPENDIX II - APPLICABLE TO CLASSIC & FORMULA CLASSIC MACHINES ONLY
5 Tyres
No hand cut slicks or wet weather tyres will be permitted. Maximum tyre width, as stated on the manufacturer’s specification sheet, shall be 4.50” for Classic machines.
Tyres must be fitted with inner tubes.
Approved rear tyres for 500 cc machines are Avon AM22, Dunlop KR 124, KR124A and KR108. Other makes of tyre are acceptable providing the maximum width does not exceed 4.50” (114mm).
Full wets have never been allowed on Classic machines because they were not available during the period.
Jeff Kirby