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Engine stripping - George - 18-09-2011
How do other riders feel about having their engines stripped after a race podium finish at the Isle of Man. I know you can have the engine tagged if you have another race during the week but all the same there is other ways to check for irregularities. The costs involved now to have an engine rebuilt is costly and not all teams have the time or money to do so. We race in Europe most of the time (EDM) and under FIM regs, we never get our engines stripped after a race or if so its a rare thing maybe after a serious protest.
RE: Engine stripping - pat slinn - 18-09-2011
Stripping engines is or was a very contentious issue. I think it was the 1983 F1 TT ( Thirty odd years is a long time to remember),Tony Rutter finished 3rd on our 750cc F1 Ducati just behind Joey Dunlop and Roger Marshall on their factory Honda F1's. I cant even remember who the chief scrutineer was but he asked me to remove the carburettor and the front cylinder from the Ducati to be measured. After I had done this I was asked to remove the rear cylinder for that to be measured. Did they seem to think that the bore on the rear cylinder was larger than the bore on the front cylinder ! I asked why the two factory Honda's of Joey and Roger were not being striped and I was told that the Honda management had refused for them to be striped. I know that a lot of people were interested to see the Honda's striped, because at that time there was a lot of speculation that Honda were using a gear driven valve gear instead of the chain drive, the regulations stated that the drive to the valve gear must be the same as the model that was homoligated.
A little later there was a article written by Norrie White of MCN regarding the whole issue of scrutineering after a race. In that article it was stated that the entry form was signed for a particular race, so by singing the entry form you were agreeing to abide to the technical regulations, including the supplementary regulations and this would be verified by the scrutineers.
However, I did notice that at the TT this year engines were being striped and measured and checked against the homoligated models technical spec.
RE: Engine stripping - Gstarron - 18-09-2011
Hey, I can only hope that I get told to take my engine apart.. (that means it got on the Podium, right..?)..
OK, some years ago here in the states, it was announced prior to racing that the top 3 bikes got inspected... a few pulled out.. the winner (a factory bike) was DQ'd with a grossly large rear cylinder... ahem..
I say check them..! It will keep the honest people honest.... My 2 cents worth..
Cheers..!!!
Ron
RE: Engine stripping - George - 19-09-2011
Maybe if a machines engine is stripped after a race and found to be within the regs, the costs to rebuild should be paid for by the race organisation
RE: Engine stripping - pat slinn - 19-09-2011
(19-09-2011, 06:40 PM)George Wrote: Maybe if a machines engine is stripped after a race and found to be within the regs, the costs to rebuild should be paid for by the race organisation
Or, if subject to a protest, malicious or otherwise, should the people who protested pick up the expense ?. But would the scrutineers know or knew what to look for ?????????????????????.
RE: Engine stripping - an old man returns - 20-09-2011
(19-09-2011, 06:40 PM)George Wrote: Maybe if a machines engine is stripped after a race and found to be within the regs, the costs to rebuild should be paid for by the race organisation
I apologise to the masses but on this point I agree with you.
RE: Engine stripping - George - 20-09-2011
(20-09-2011, 08:25 AM)an old man returns Wrote:(19-09-2011, 06:40 PM)George Wrote: Maybe if a machines engine is stripped after a race and found to be within the regs, the costs to rebuild should be paid for by the race organisation
I apologise to the masses but on this point I agree with you.
Great one good result out of three starts
RE: Engine stripping - larryd - 20-09-2011
Great one good result out of three starts
Quit while you're ahead, George
RE: Engine stripping - pat slinn - 22-09-2011
C'mon guys there must be somebody who has views about engine stripping, !
RE: Engine stripping - Jo Rowe - 22-09-2011
Clearly I do!
RE: Engine stripping - pat slinn - 22-09-2011
Do you want to share them Jo ?
RE: Engine stripping - ammo - 22-09-2011
(22-09-2011, 08:21 PM)pat slinn Wrote: Do you want to share them Jo ?
I'd be more than happy to have any of my motors stripped and measured. On a single cylinder 2 stroke its a simple and relatively inexpensive operation to rebuild it as well.
ammo
RE: Engine stripping - Gstarron - 23-09-2011
Does my engine have to wear stripper shoes..??
Ron
RE: Engine stripping - pat slinn - 23-09-2011
(23-09-2011, 05:42 AM)Gstarron Wrote: Does my engine have to wear stripper shoes..??
Ron
That is such a silly remark !
RE: Engine stripping - Jo Rowe - 23-09-2011
Ammo, we say it every Manx, how good it is to have two strokes to measure. If only they were all two strokes!
Pat, George, Ken, I do appreciate that it's time consuming (I rarely see my children awake during race week because I'm at the grandstand for so long) and costly but really, what do you propose is the alternative? I can think of many people who were cheating (not just top 3 finishers). Would you be happy finishing behind them? Would you be happy to take everyone's word for it that they were complying with the regulations?
RE: Engine stripping - David Taylor - 23-09-2011
Jo, I'm rather surprised by your remark - "I can think of many people who were cheating (not just top 3 finishers)". Wouldn't a fairly simply answer here be to dyno the bikes. As peak torque represents maximum airflow efficiency of an engine, a good dyno guy should be able to tell more or less at a glance if an engine was significantly oversize? If the torque was substantially up, the capacity would be suspect. BHP is torque x revs so it's relatively easy to figure out how far oversize an engine is at any particular engine speed compared to a known legal motor...
RE: Engine stripping - pat slinn - 24-09-2011
As I said at the beginning of this discussion stripping engines at the end of a race to confirm that the engine conforms to the regulations is a contentious one. How many championships, from club, national, international and world championships have been won by people using engines, and or component parts that did not conform to the technical regulations, I am not saying that all the riders knew who rode illegal machines that they were illegal. In a lot of cases if you were a factory rider you raced what you were given. And in many cases you could not tell from the outside appearance of a engine that it had illegal parts inside. But as we all know it did go on. In many cases the pressure on the scrutineers and technical staff by a winning team or factory NOT to have a engine striped was immense, as per my posting earlier about the 1983 F1 TT. I have been searching for the article that I mentioned in a earlier posting that was written by Norrie White in the 80's ( when I find it I will post it), in that article he eludes to the fact that technically if a entry form has been signed by a competitor, entrant or sponsor they were agreeing that the machine that was to be raced conformed in every way to the technical regulations for that event. Norrie went on to say that if a engine was illegal surely somebody knew this and walking away with any reward was technically fraud. I cant remember if Norrie had received any form of legal advice, or if it was just his thinking. Even in the late 70's and into the 80's racing was very expensive and people needed to have results to carry on racing, but the thought of winning on an illegal bike, and walking away with the money is surely "perverse" ( is this the correct word ? ) weather you are a clubman, and entrant/sponsor or even a factory, and I for one have no doubt that world championships have been won using machines that did not conform to the technical regulations. My father told me once that a competitor was caught in a random engine check at a GP, his engine was illegal and he was banned for a whole season for cheating !, this was in the 40's, I can hear people saying Yes but that was the 40's, what difference s there ???? could you imagine that happening to day !!!!
RE: Engine stripping - cregnybaa - 24-09-2011
Pat its not just engines that people bend the rules with as was the case last year at the manx with wheels and they would not take the protest.
RE: Engine stripping - Lee - 24-09-2011
(23-09-2011, 10:02 PM)David Taylor Wrote: Wouldn't a fairly simply answer here be to dyno the bikes. As peak torque represents maximum airflow efficiency of an engine, a good dyno guy should be able to tell more or less at a glance if an engine was significantly oversize? If the torque was substantially up, the capacity would be suspect. BHP is torque x revs so it's relatively easy to figure out how far oversize an engine is at any particular engine speed compared to a known legal motor...
Yeah, can anyone confirm that this could be accurate?
If the Dyno could be used, maybe not only the top 3 could be checked but a pre-determined number of bikes could be tested using the old method of "picking numbers from a hat."
RE: Engine stripping - Gstarron - 24-09-2011
Sorry but this will be a long read.
Sorry, but a dyno test will have no precise bearing on engine size..
OK I guess many of you have never heard of Smokey Yunick a well know NASCAR guy... Well he is famous here in the States (his book makes for great reading in the winter)... He was very smart at his rule interpretation. When the rules stated a maximum fuel tank size, he used very large diameter and very long fuel lines... But he did NOT technically cheat..! When he got protested they took his fuel tank to measure, and he drove the race car back to the pits.. duh..! Then the rules on fuel lines were added... Not long ago here comes a race car that just didn't look right.. sure enough it was like 7/8ths scale.. Now they have "templates" to measure the car size.. and on and on....
Ahem, now I think a few years ago, someone got caught with a super big fuel tank...
BUT, when there is a regulated inspection the temptation to cheat is reduced for sure... Plus it takes away the "Bad Guy" aka the one who files a protest...
I am NOT suggesting more rules... I happen to like how clear the rules are overall..! And on motorcycles Vs cars you can see a lot more...
A few years ago at Daytona, the 2nd place racer had an illegal (by rule) component on his bike. It was obvious.. even the announcer mentioned it.!! No, I did not file a protest, as my bike was slower regardless.. However that rule was wrong, that component was used in the day... So what I did AFTER the race was suggest a rule change, and provided the documentation why that component was indeed raced in the day... the rule got changed almost immediately...
Now what I do not understand, is how this is a big expensive deal...?? Sure it takes time (some engines a LOT of time) to do it, but what a gasket or two..?? There is no need to do a total rebuild... just clean everything and put it together...
And yes I have seen a few racers that have like zero spares at the MGP... Wow..! With all the cost of getting there, not even having the basic spares is not a good race plan... I am as broke (or worse) than the next guy, but when I come to the Manx, I have almost a complete spare engine (I want a complete spare.. hope that happens this winter) complete spare ignition, etc... Some guys have a complete spare bike..! (lucky them..!!)..
Ron