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What's wrong with riders now-a-days? - DCLUCIE - 10-06-2009
I know, I know the bikes are much faster now than they were in the 'old days', but surely the modern riders now seem to run a little scared of the rain. It used to be that you ran in anything and that was that. Why not now? Surely the biggest test of a rider should be the ability to ride in any weather. Is it because they are going too fast now? If so slow down for the wet bits or if you know its wet slow down and adjust your speed. You don't have to do 130 mph to win a TT, or you don't if its wet. For me I think todays problem was its not wet all the way around and this is a major problem for riders and I fully understand them not running if its wet in bits and not in others, as coming accross bits that are wet all of a sudden is far too risky because of the fact you can not adjust your speed fast enough. That I do and can understand. But what if its wet all the way around?
I do understand that there is a risk involved, and that risk increases with the rain, but this can surely be negated alot by the speed? Is it the tyres? Well if its the tyre temp then full wets should be used and because of the blocks being closer and more of them this increases the temp. So why not run in them?
It seems to me that there are a few people that say they won't ride in the wet and yet others will, so is it ran for the few and not for the masses?
Just a question to throw out there for discussion, not saying that the current riders are wimps. But ........
RE: What's wrong with riders now-a-days? - pykey - 10-06-2009
I think the word wimp is uncalled for ? these modern bikes are rocket ships safety has to be the priorioty.
RE: What's wrong with riders now-a-days? - DCLUCIE - 10-06-2009
Was going to put big girls blouse, but thought it would offend the female members of the forum. How about scaredy cats...... They are rocket ships yes, but as the old addage says, the throttle works both ways, MotoGP bikes are about twice as powerful as these machines and they run in the wet. They also run on a track that doesn't have the grip levels in the wet as normal roads do.
Just a thought though. Not ment to offend anyone
RE: What's wrong with riders now-a-days? - larryd - 10-06-2009
Dave, you really are all over the place on this one, but it's not a matter to be thrashed out on this forum.
Rather, over a pint in the George next May?
Thanks for the best wishes pre-race at Billown - Willy didn't pass them on 'til after the race, but it's the thought that counts!!
RE: What's wrong with riders now-a-days? - ancient - 10-06-2009
as a rider of the fifties and sixties i find it strange that they no longer ride in the rain.surely michael showed that it can be done.i remember when the road surface in places you could have seen to shave in when it was wet.and our tyres lasted for half the season.you just didnt touch the throttle or pull on the steering.is it getting too far removed from the tourist trophy which was to develop rd bykes?
RE: What's wrong with riders now-a-days? - DCLUCIE - 10-06-2009
Hi Larry,
So sorry I couldn't make it down to see you at the classic. Was in a litttle too much pain. I really missed it. Sorry you didn't get the good luck until after, but judging from the photo's of you getting around there you didn't need it. See you in the George then, may even get to watch as long as the new legs are up to it. Lol Having a few problems at the mo but then again can not complain.
As for this thread it was ment to encourage debate between the young and old fella's amongst us. I was sure that it was a subject that would have both sides being brought to the fore.
I admire the lads that went out tried it and decided to jack it in. Takes alot to make that descision on the spot with so much at stake. I have to admitt I made a descision like that once and have regretted it ever since as it cleared up and was more than good enough to race on after a while. I will never forget that day and it still sticks in my throat when I think of it.
RE: What's wrong with riders now-a-days? - pykey - 10-06-2009
larryd Wrote:Dave, you really are all over the place on this one, but it's not a matter to be thrashed out on this forum.
Rather, over a pint in the George next May?
Thanks for the best wishes pre-race at Billown - Willy didn't pass them on 'til after the race, but it's the thought that counts!!
Larry which Dave are you posting back too?
RE: What's wrong with riders now-a-days? - larryd - 10-06-2009
pykey Wrote:larryd Wrote:Dave, you really are all over the place on this one, but it's not a matter to be thrashed out on this forum.
Rather, over a pint in the George next May?
Thanks for the best wishes pre-race at Billown - Willy didn't pass them on 'til after the race, but it's the thought that counts!!
Larry which Dave are you posting back too?
Sorry Pykey, it was Clucie I was answering!
RE: What's wrong with riders now-a-days? - MV - 10-06-2009
I think we have long past the Tourist Trophy days
i felt this 2 years ago when I heard it said on manx Radio that the course is almost there, menaing that the rubber had to be paid down like a short circuit
TT doesnt do wet race any more
Even the Dunlop boys were split on this today
RE: What's wrong with riders now-a-days? - PeterCourtney - 10-06-2009
I refer readers to some comments I made here two or three years ago, that as it is a road race, road-legal tyres should be used, with changes only allowed in the event of a puncture.
This would not only solve these interminable wet-or-dry tyre worries, but lead to development of the ultimate grippy but long life tyres for raod bikes.
If it restricted the speeds and power of the bikes, then so much the better - but they may have to put some corners back in the course, and bump-up some of the billiard table bits!
RE: What's wrong with riders now-a-days? - Rocket Man - 10-06-2009
I always thaught that it was fog/mist on the mountain that would stop the race from going ahead not the wet stuff.
Next thing it will be too hot, causing engines to overheat and the tarmac melting.
RE: What's wrong with riders now-a-days? - DCLUCIE - 10-06-2009
Hi Peter I still think that the tyre developement still gets through to the every day rider from the likes of MotoGP. Just look at multiple compounds, you can go to the local tyre dealer and get one off the shelf that has a different compound at the edge than in the middle of the tyre. I think the thing that will stop these developements is the single tyre manufacturer. This leads to non competition and less competative developement. I don't think that the tyre manufacturers will develope a special tyre for just the TT, they will just force the teams to use the tyres off the shelf. You may have special compounds taken from the slicks but that would be a very expensive tyre and out of reach for anyone apart from the top teams. A bit like the special fuels they used to use.
It makes me laugh when they talk about the rubber going down, think this is more psychological than anything else. They seem to forget that road sweepers are used on alot of the track after normal traffic and also the day to day traffic will also have a major affect on the road condition.
This is really good to hear from everyone am really enjoying it.
I have to agree with Peter and others though who say that the days of a wet race are no more. Its such a shame that we will be robbed of great moments like Joey's 250 win in terrible conditions. I guess this all started with Steve Hislop who was famous for not racing in the wet. There were of course others but Steve was the one that came to mind so sorry for highlighting the great man only on this.
I have always regarded rain as part of racing and a great test of skill and throttle control. Some have even made their names by wet weather riding. Can you name a few?
RE: What's wrong with riders now-a-days? - shaun hogg - 10-06-2009
Before i put my tuppence worth in on this debate , i have no idea on tyres technically so only a laymans verdict or opinion , however i think this week so far the COC has made the correct decisions regarding cancellation of races , the races yesterday where absolutely tremendous & John MC on monday was superb , i think we all agree the races are about speed , there can be no real pleasure from a riders point of view in racing around here in the wet aside from the safety angle which of course is paramount , it is no fun for the spectators either , i have watched my fair share of wet races here & will always stay till the death of any race but really i think we all get frustrated at the lack of real speed involved , i appreciate some riders shine in the wet & some hate it , i can vividly remember yer Maun in 87 on the Senior race on the Saturday in atrocious conditions doing 105mph , which i still think is one of the gretaest laps ever around here , but the weather was atrocious & i was truly glad to get home after that one , god knows how the riders must feel .
I am sure some of you guys of a more mature age have witnessed worse weather than that , Surtees in the late 50s i think was one notable race when the paint was removed from the fairing by hailstones & he was lifted off the bike at the end of the race.
Today though i think the threat of being sued or the fear of something happening to a rider has to be foremost in the oragnisers mind , i well remember the production race of i think it was 99 when it was run in appalling conditions DJ won the race & i think Milky was second , the bikes where aquaplaning all over the place & unffortunately we had a fatality at ginger Hall cant rember the guys name offhand Kenny something i think but he lost it in the wet & was killed .
is it worth the risk for riders to force them to take chances , personally i dont think so .
I admire all of these guys & girls from first to last TT or MGP , but i dont think we should put any potential risks on the table for them , only my opinion & as said i am not up technically on tyres etc & i most certainlly do not hink any of them are wimps .
Only my own opinion .
Cheers everyone . Shaun
RE: What's wrong with riders now-a-days? - Stella - 11-06-2009
Ok here is my tuppence worth....
Total respect For Michael Dunlop for his win today.
Equal respect for William Dunlop for pulling in and when interviewd said it wasnt for him today in those conditions.
RE: What's wrong with riders now-a-days? - Don Simons - 11-06-2009
Wonder if there are any stats on offs in the wet and the dry?
RE: What's wrong with riders now-a-days? - Gstarron - 11-06-2009
To me, I think it the races are about speed and skill... most skill than speed... and the riders that can race in less than perfect conditions really stand out..!
Cheers..!
Ron
RE: What's wrong with riders now-a-days? - pykey - 11-06-2009
larryd Wrote:pykey Wrote:larryd Wrote:Dave, you really are all over the place on this one, but it's not a matter to be thrashed out on this forum.
Rather, over a pint in the George next May?
Thanks for the best wishes pre-race at Billown - Willy didn't pass them on 'til after the race, but it's the thought that counts!!
Larry which Dave are you posting back too?
Sorry Pykey, it was Clucie I was answering!
ok larry my name is dave also
RE: What's wrong with riders now-a-days? - Tomcat - 11-06-2009
Funny, I'd been thinking about this very subject. Personally I would prefer to see them ride in *most* conditions with road legal treaded tyres for all. I've raced and practised in conditions they wouldn't run a race in now, and I can safely (literally!) say that it can be done as long as you bear the conditions in mind.
However, I can understand the factors that are driving them to the policies they have adopted:
- Today's TT races are first and foremost a profitmaking show, not a trial or sporting event as they started out. Therefore the spectacle is what counts.
- The greatest publicity value is achieved with ever-increasing lap speeds, meaning slicks.
- The negative publicity value of a serious crash in the wet and possible insurance ramifications if the organisers were deemed to have allowed "unnecessary" risks by running in wet/mist.
- Racing wets wouldn't last 2 laps, especially if the course was only partly wet.
RE: What's wrong with riders now-a-days? - DCLUCIE - 11-06-2009
I think this looks like a marmite moment. Some riders like it some don't, and the same for spectators.
You lot should all know by now not to take some of my comments leterally, so didn't really mean the wimp thing.
As I said before there are problems with differing conditions around the course and the riders not knowing what to expect, but I also believe that if it is raining all around the course they should run the race. Maybe only for the shorter races, and only if the rain isn't torrential. I still remember one of Joey's wins where it was originally cut down to three laps, but Joey looked to the sky and decided unlike all the others to fill the tank to the brim and go through on the first lap. All the others pulled in for the pit stop on the first lap so they could get the flyer in on the third. But Joey had it right and the race was reduced to a two lapper. Of course because Joey went through, he was miles ahead of everyone else. There was total uproar by loads of teams moaning saying that Joey already knew that the race was going to be reduced. But I love to think that it was because he just knew. Track knowlage is not just about the track itself but also the conditions. To me the future of the TT is going to be a lesser place becuse of the lack of little stories like that. I can name others, Mick Grant's call from the mountain to stop Chris Guy winning his first TT.
Can anyone name any others?
RE: What's wrong with riders now-a-days? - PeterCourtney - 11-06-2009
In my day they did used to say that they sent us (125cc racers) out to see how many were killed as a way of deciding whether to start the Senior...
IMHO it takes more skill and judgement to race in the wet - or wind or whatever. Anyone can scrabble around and dig their way out of misjudgements in perfect dry conditions, whereas in the wet you have to simply get it right!
There obviously must be extraordinary conditions that make racing impossible, but they would have to have been really extreme to have made me chicken out. In '71 there was torrential rain, mist over the mountain and buffeting winds, but those who finished must have felt the same sense of achievement as I did.
The Isle of Man should be known for fairies in the glens, not on the bikes, and don't get me started on Elf and Safety!