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RE: Inquest today? - FC - 04-04-2008
Peter, Tom
Quality practice is not having to practice against or arround machines of many classes as it used to be at the TT. Gone are the days when a rider would go out and do a practice lap on a SB, come in jump on a proddy then 600, 400,250.125 and even a single. Yes agreed practice sessions have been reduced by 4 mornings but dont we now get a practice session after each race ???.
As to fitness yes a rider has to be fit but not totally fooked by doing to much practice in one session as used to be. A rider should arrive at the TT as fit as possible and in good shape mentally to fine tune himself for the races ahead. A rider that has to do to much in a short time in my opinion is a danger to himself and others. The way the racing is now is just about right. (thats going to upset the strokers
)
RE: Inquest today? - Paul Phillips - 04-04-2008
Reading through some of these postings, I am guessing that some of you aren't really sure as to what the format of the TT is at present.
Morning Practices ended around the same time as the smaller classes were withdrawn from the TT. Whilst I have been blamed for the demise of both, I can confirm I had nothing to do with the TT other than being a supporter at the time, but then I sometimes seem to get the blame for everything!
At the TT right now, riders are enjoying a lot of practice time. Several solo riders managed over 25 laps practice ahead of the first race in 2007, split between a maximum of three machines. So there is perhaps as much practice time per machine as there has ever been, despite the demise of the morning practices, which is the point Colin was trying to make I think.
The MGP situation is different and given the differing classes, there is a lot less practice than there was once per machine available, and also in comparison to the TT. I don't know what the answer to that problem is right now, but I should also point out, that it isn't one for me to try and work out either.
As for the debate regarding newcomers coming straight to the TT, it is easy to say all newcomers should go to the MGP first, but if a rider enters the TT, has a good CV which may include pure road race experience and has a decent team and infrastructure behind him, there should be room in the TT for him or her.
At TT 2007, six of the newcomers taking part lapped at over 120mph by the end of the fortnight. Two of them lapped at over 124mph. Three lapped at over 121mph in the 600cc class, one of which is the fifth fastest rider on a Supersport machine EVER around the Mountain Circuit.
Safety has been used in the argument so far, but can you tell me it would have been safe to have these riders out in the MGP, where they would have to have practiced at the beginning of the week with T20 Suzuki's and the like lapping at 80mph? Steve Plater in 07 and Guy Martin in 04 both lapped at over 110mph in their first ever practice sessions on the Mountain Course.
In recent years riders with debatable racing CV's and zero road race experience were encouraged to come to the TT en mass. They were rarely able to perform at a level acceptable for the TT. That is no longer the case. Any newcomer having his or her entry accepted into the TT, will have to have been riding regularly at a relatively high level, will have to commit to significant pre-event preparation in conjunction with the TT Rider Liaison Team and have a solid team around him or her.
Paul
RE: Inquest today? - cargo - 05-04-2008
Paul is quite right.................the Manx GP is no place for the likes of Steve Plater or any other clearly highly talented newcomer.
However I would like to think that those newcomers who enter the TT that Paul and his organising commitee consider unsuitable for the TT are directed to the Manx GP where they can prove their worth and get a TT ride the following year or remain to enjoy being a Manx GP regular.
And also I would hope that those who chose to start a TT course career at the Manx GP should be allowed to do so if they want.
RE: Inquest today? - Shaun Harris - 07-04-2008
Paul Phillips Wrote:I'm not passing the buck at all Shaun. I was simply answering Harvey's question honestly, having just read it for the first time about an hour ago. I don't know the answer right now, but I will find out why the contact wasn't developed.
Paul
So 12 or so days have passed since you posted this Paul, and WHAT IS THE AWNSER PLEASE, I note you have been back on the thread, but did not awnser this question as yet??????????
RE: Inquest today? - Don Simons - 07-04-2008
Having just read the coroner’s findings there are a couple of questions and observations that come to mind.
1. Who exactly,beside Mr Ryder and Mr Eddie Nelson, were in attendance at the meeting of “various officials on Friday, 8th June 2007 at 4.15 p.m”? They need to be named.
2. If the comments and demeanour of those involved were described as “crass and insensitive” and “offensive” and “smug” why are they allowed to remain in their postions?
3. Mr Moyle made it very clear what action should be taken in the following extract:
“I have no power to ban or exclude those officials or marshals whose conduct I have seriously criticised. In any event, it must be that their positions are untenable and I have no doubt that they will do the decent, honourable thing and have no significant involvement in the Manx Motorcycle Club or marshalling for future events.” (bold type is mine)
4. In the real world of business such obvious buck passing with such serious results is rewarded by dismissal, demotion or transfer. Most CEOs would say simply find out where the buck stops and get rid of them.
5. There seems to be no shortage of money available to the ACU when they can hire the services of a QC who acts in top murder cases, whereas the marshals and contractors get a QC who specializes in insurance and injury matters.
RE: Inquest today? - PeterCourtney - 07-04-2008
The more I read of this thread, the press, and the Coroner's report, the more I am reminded of the recent tv programme about Wibsey Working Men's Club. This was very obviously going to Hell in a bucket, with most of the commitee having no idea about business, refusing to accept the changes in drinking habits and prices, on the one hand recognising that new younger members needed to be attracted to swell the takings yet not wanting the disturbance and change that this would bring to their little empire.........
That programme was a trage-comedy for most viewers, and at the end of the day, unlike the TT and Manx races it mattered little whether it survived, prospered or folded.
The TT as a whole seems to have been run by one of several similar lots of 'good old boys', all funny-handshaking and back-slapping, but very good at running for cover when any serious matters arose. As it involves one of our most revered sporting occassions, it deserves far better. As it involves the lives of brave young men and women, it must get far better, or be dismantled, disbanded and consigned to history.
RE: Inquest today? - Tomcat - 07-04-2008
Paul Phillips Wrote:Reading through some of these postings, I am guessing that some of you aren't really sure as to what the format of the TT is at present.
Morning Practices ended around the same time as the smaller classes were withdrawn from the TT. Whilst I have been blamed for the demise of both, I can confirm I had nothing to do with the TT other than being a supporter at the time, but then I sometimes seem to get the blame for everything!
At the TT right now, riders are enjoying a lot of practice time. Several solo riders managed over 25 laps practice ahead of the first race in 2007, split between a maximum of three machines. So there is perhaps as much practice time per machine as there has ever been, despite the demise of the morning practices, which is the point Colin was trying to make I think.
The MGP situation is different and given the differing classes, there is a lot less practice than there was once per machine available, and also in comparison to the TT. I don't know what the answer to that problem is right now, but I should also point out, that it isn't one for me to try and work out either.
As for the debate regarding newcomers coming straight to the TT, it is easy to say all newcomers should go to the MGP first, but if a rider enters the TT, has a good CV which may include pure road race experience and has a decent team and infrastructure behind him, there should be room in the TT for him or her.
At TT 2007, six of the newcomers taking part lapped at over 120mph by the end of the fortnight. Two of them lapped at over 124mph. Three lapped at over 121mph in the 600cc class, one of which is the fifth fastest rider on a Supersport machine EVER around the Mountain Circuit.
Safety has been used in the argument so far, but can you tell me it would have been safe to have these riders out in the MGP, where they would have to have practiced at the beginning of the week with T20 Suzuki's and the like lapping at 80mph? Steve Plater in 07 and Guy Martin in 04 both lapped at over 110mph in their first ever practice sessions on the Mountain Course.
In recent years riders with debatable racing CV's and zero road race experience were encouraged to come to the TT en mass. They were rarely able to perform at a level acceptable for the TT. That is no longer the case. Any newcomer having his or her entry accepted into the TT, will have to have been riding regularly at a relatively high level, will have to commit to significant pre-event preparation in conjunction with the TT Rider Liaison Team and have a solid team around him or her.
Paul
Thanks for your constructive reply Paul - as you no doubt surmised my personal involvement has been with the MGP where as you say the lack of practice is a serious issue, especially where safety is concerned. If you feel that issue has been addressed at the TT perhaps the MGP organisers should be adopting the same system. You say it isn't your rresponsibility to sort it out. OK then, whose is it? This inquest seems to be littered with people saying "but it wasn't my responsibility" and my view of the organisers right to the top seems to be one of inadequate allocation of responsibility and monitoring of performance.
My suggestion about making the MGP a possible qualifying event for the TT does have issues, you are right in that too. However I don't think your point about the practice speeds of some of the 'newcomer' top riders stands, as they wouildn't be out with T20 Suzukis (the classics go out after the modern bikes are being brought back in) and there are plenty of people at the MGP lapping at the speeds you stated. I remain concerned at the fundamental issue of people jumping straight in the deep end, at the TT, with no prior experience racing in the Island. As I said before I have some background in risk assessments, and this one thing jumps out at me. Secondary safety (during/post crash) is one thing the organisers are very good at as a rule, but perhaps more thought should be given to primary safety (preventing the crash).
RE: Inquest today? - FC - 07-04-2008
Only way to improve afety at the MGP is to reduce classes, who would you get rid of
RE: Inquest today? - Paul Phillips - 07-04-2008
The responsibility for practice racing and anything else to do with the MGP clearly stands with the MMCC.
With regards to my comments about the newcomer riders having to ride with the Classic bikes I am right; newcomers ride with the Classic's for the first two sessions and always have done. Having spectated during the second session last year at Milntown, I found what I saw to be terrifying.
Paul
RE: Inquest today? - Hilary M - 07-04-2008
Paul Phillips Wrote:The responsibility for practice racing and anything else to do with the MGP clearly stands with the MMCC.
With regards to my comments about the newcomer riders having to ride with the Classic bikes I am right; newcomers ride with the Classic's for the first two sessions and always have done. Having spectated during the second session last year at Milntown, I found what I saw to be terrifying.
Paul
So will the MMCC take on board what you are saying Paul? You obviously understand the problems,and are in a far better position than most of us here,to get them to listen.Old habits die hard, but now is the time to make sure that everyone concerned with organising knows what they should be doing.From what I have gathered from some marshals who have attended recent training sesions,they now have to sign a form stating that they have checked signs are in place.Fair enough,but ACU officials should drive round the course as late as possible prior to practice and races,to check again that all in is place.They are the ones responsible for issuing course licences,so they should be ultimately responsible for all the final details.They simply do not want to take the blame for anything,and will forever attempt to pass the buck.Please forgive me if this idea has already been put in place.
I have also heard concerns that,at the training sessions,not enough time is being devoted to basic first aid training.This came from a fairly experienced marshal,who is re-joining after a few years' lay off.She felt that the session should be longer,or the classes smaller.
There is obviously a great deal of work going on behind the scenes in order to address most of the shortcomings pointed out by Michael Moyle,the coroner,especially given the relatively short time before the TT.The MGP organisers still have plenty of time to have a rethink on certain aspects,so let us hope this is done.I would love to do something to help,but I haven't been asked!
RE: Inquest today? - Jeff - 07-04-2008
I think a few people are starting to focus in on something I have been thinking for a while. That being, that the future of the Manx GP is in grave danger. The group most at fault following the inquest where the MMCC who have subsequently been moved away from the organisation of the TT. They are still responsible for the Manx though. What I would like to know is what they have been doing to ensure these problems don't come back in August.
Whilst it seems clear the organisers of the TT are working hard to put things right, what are the MMCC doing?
Jeff
RE: Inquest today? - Dusty - 07-04-2008
Jeff Wrote:I think a few people are starting to focus in on something I have been thinking for a while. That being, that the future of the Manx GP is in grave danger. The group most at fault following the inquest where the MMCC who have subsequently been moved away from the organisation of the TT. They are still responsible for the Manx though. What I would like to know is what they have been doing to ensure these problems don't come back in August.
Whilst it seems clear the organisers of the TT are working hard to put things right, what are the MMCC doing?
Jeff
I agree Jeff and I also think it will be interesting that those officials whom in Mr Moyles opinion should have no significant involvement in the MMCC are actually continuing in their roles. Watch this space!
RE: Inquest today? - Phil Windrum - 07-04-2008
I believe 2 people named specifically in the report had resigned even before the inquest was heard and another has resigned since. Not sure if anyone mentioned from the Government has done so.
RE: Inquest today? - Tomcat - 07-04-2008
FC Wrote:Only way to improve safety at the MGP is to reduce classes, who would you get rid of
Are you referring to speed differentials? What would you suggest, the mixture of classics lapping between 100mph and 80mph, or the modern bikes lapping between 120mph and 90mph? fact is, there will always be a mixture of speeds and dropping one class would do nothing to change the situation. If you are referring to the TT situation where you basically have 1000s, 600s and sidecars yes on paper it looks a more homogeneous field but you've still got a spread of 130-110mph lap averages, and God knows how much on corner speeds. Not to mention a race makeup that is generally described as too samey.
Speed differentials are not the be-all and end-all in course safety. I speak as one who's ridden the MGP on a variety of bikes over 20 years, including mixed practice sessions with Newcomers. The only 'speed differential 'incident I can recall was at the TT, involving a touring rider. More incidents (notably in the last few years) could easily be put down to riders trying too hard in practice, or inexperienced (on the course) riders making mistakes in the race.
We're all concerned by the same things, the same end in mind. Minimising risk without crippling the races. We need constructive ideas, and while discussion among ourselves is good we need to avoid simply shooting down ideas without providing useful alternatives.
Going back to your original point, there are plenty of ways to improve safety at the MGP without needing any cut in classes, the main one is quite simply providing more practice. I don't think we need death by 1000 cuts, though my crystal ball doesn't look good in that direction. Bear in mind if the Manx goes, the TT won't be long after it.
RE: Inquest today? - Hilary M - 08-04-2008
Phil Windrum Wrote:I believe 2 people named specifically in the report had resigned even before the inquest was heard and another has resigned since. Not sure if anyone mentioned from the Government has done so.
It has been very quiet on the government front,but of course,as we all know, the volunteers have a much more difficult time when they try and defend themselves