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+--- Thread: Should bikes race in the wet ? (/showthread.php?tid=11879)
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - larryd - 05-09-2011
(05-09-2011, 10:08 PM)Jeff Kirby Wrote: George
I don't get involved with arguments about regulations but you owe Larry an apology!
APPENDIX I - APPLICABLE TO ALL MACHINES
1 TYRES
Owing to variations in weather conditions which can occur on the TT Course and in the interests of safety, only tyres having a moulded tread pattern will be permitted. No additional cutting of moulded tyres will be permitted. No slicks, cut or uncut, will be allowed. Metal valve caps (not extractor type) must be fitted. Valves must be of the short stub stem type.
APPENDIX II - APPLICABLE TO CLASSIC & FORMULA CLASSIC MACHINES ONLY
5 Tyres
No hand cut slicks or wet weather tyres will be permitted. Maximum tyre width, as stated on the manufacturer’s specification sheet, shall be 4.50” for Classic machines.
Tyres must be fitted with inner tubes.
Approved rear tyres for 500 cc machines are Avon AM22, Dunlop KR 124, KR124A and KR108. Other makes of tyre are acceptable providing the maximum width does not exceed 4.50” (114mm).
Full wets have never been allowed on Classic machines because they were not available during the period.
Jeff Kirby
Thank you Jeff - some of us can read !!
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - George - 05-09-2011
(05-09-2011, 10:08 PM)Jeff Kirby Wrote: George
I don't get involved with arguments about regulations but you owe Larry an apology!
APPENDIX I - APPLICABLE TO ALL MACHINES
1 TYRES
Owing to variations in weather conditions which can occur on the TT Course and in the interests of safety, only tyres having a moulded tread pattern will be permitted. No additional cutting of moulded tyres will be permitted. No slicks, cut or uncut, will be allowed. Metal valve caps (not extractor type) must be fitted. Valves must be of the short stub stem type.
APPENDIX II - APPLICABLE TO CLASSIC & FORMULA CLASSIC MACHINES ONLY
5 Tyres
No hand cut slicks or wet weather tyres will be permitted. Maximum tyre width, as stated on the manufacturer’s specification sheet, shall be 4.50” for Classic machines.
Tyres must be fitted with inner tubes.
Approved rear tyres for 500 cc machines are Avon AM22, Dunlop KR 124, KR124A and KR108. Other makes of tyre are acceptable providing the maximum width does not exceed 4.50” (114mm).
Full wets have never been allowed on Classic machines because they were not available during the period.
Jeff Kirby
Jeff, if this is the case then in needs clarification in the Technical department as riders have been told NO full wets ( rider had to remove them outside scrutinneering this year), The race service vans dont even carry them now at the MGP. Larry made a statement that a Pireli full wet tyre would do four laps in the Dry, this is utter tosh at the speeds we do, lucky to get one lap.
(05-09-2011, 10:54 PM)larryd Wrote:(05-09-2011, 10:08 PM)Jeff Kirby Wrote: George
I don't get involved with arguments about regulations but you owe Larry an apology!
APPENDIX I - APPLICABLE TO ALL MACHINES
1 TYRES
Owing to variations in weather conditions which can occur on the TT Course and in the interests of safety, only tyres having a moulded tread pattern will be permitted. No additional cutting of moulded tyres will be permitted. No slicks, cut or uncut, will be allowed. Metal valve caps (not extractor type) must be fitted. Valves must be of the short stub stem type.
APPENDIX II - APPLICABLE TO CLASSIC & FORMULA CLASSIC MACHINES ONLY
5 Tyres
No hand cut slicks or wet weather tyres will be permitted. Maximum tyre width, as stated on the manufacturer’s specification sheet, shall be 4.50” for Classic machines.
Tyres must be fitted with inner tubes.
Approved rear tyres for 500 cc machines are Avon AM22, Dunlop KR 124, KR124A and KR108. Other makes of tyre are acceptable providing the maximum width does not exceed 4.50” (114mm).
Full wets have never been allowed on Classic machines because they were not available during the period.
Jeff Kirby
Thank you Jeff - some of us can read !!
What is in the regs is not always kept to, we have been stoped from using full wets but allowed Pireli inters (wet).Could you do 4 laps on one set of wets at an average of over 115mph.
Another question, is a race at the MGP ever declared a wet race????
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - ammo - 06-09-2011
(05-09-2011, 11:17 PM)George Wrote:(05-09-2011, 10:08 PM)Jeff Kirby Wrote: George
I don't get involved with arguments about regulations but you owe Larry an apology!
APPENDIX I - APPLICABLE TO ALL MACHINES
1 TYRES
Owing to variations in weather conditions which can occur on the TT Course and in the interests of safety, only tyres having a moulded tread pattern will be permitted. No additional cutting of moulded tyres will be permitted. No slicks, cut or uncut, will be allowed. Metal valve caps (not extractor type) must be fitted. Valves must be of the short stub stem type.
APPENDIX II - APPLICABLE TO CLASSIC & FORMULA CLASSIC MACHINES ONLY
5 Tyres
No hand cut slicks or wet weather tyres will be permitted. Maximum tyre width, as stated on the manufacturer’s specification sheet, shall be 4.50” for Classic machines.
Tyres must be fitted with inner tubes.
Approved rear tyres for 500 cc machines are Avon AM22, Dunlop KR 124, KR124A and KR108. Other makes of tyre are acceptable providing the maximum width does not exceed 4.50” (114mm).
Full wets have never been allowed on Classic machines because they were not available during the period.
Jeff Kirby
Jeff, if this is the case then in needs clarification in the Technical department as riders have been told NO full wets ( rider had to remove them outside scrutinneering this year), The race service vans dont even carry them now at the MGP. Larry made a statement that a Pireli full wet tyre would do four laps in the Dry, this is utter tosh at the speeds we do, lucky to get one lap.
(05-09-2011, 10:54 PM)larryd Wrote:(05-09-2011, 10:08 PM)Jeff Kirby Wrote: George
I don't get involved with arguments about regulations but you owe Larry an apology!
APPENDIX I - APPLICABLE TO ALL MACHINES
1 TYRES
Owing to variations in weather conditions which can occur on the TT Course and in the interests of safety, only tyres having a moulded tread pattern will be permitted. No additional cutting of moulded tyres will be permitted. No slicks, cut or uncut, will be allowed. Metal valve caps (not extractor type) must be fitted. Valves must be of the short stub stem type.
APPENDIX II - APPLICABLE TO CLASSIC & FORMULA CLASSIC MACHINES ONLY
5 Tyres
No hand cut slicks or wet weather tyres will be permitted. Maximum tyre width, as stated on the manufacturer’s specification sheet, shall be 4.50” for Classic machines.
Tyres must be fitted with inner tubes.
Approved rear tyres for 500 cc machines are Avon AM22, Dunlop KR 124, KR124A and KR108. Other makes of tyre are acceptable providing the maximum width does not exceed 4.50” (114mm).
Full wets have never been allowed on Classic machines because they were not available during the period.
Jeff Kirby
Thank you Jeff - some of us can read !!
What is in the regs is not always kept to, we have been stoped from using full wets but allowed Pireli inters (wet).Could you do 4 laps on one set of wets at an average of over 115mph.
Another question, is a race at the MGP ever declared a wet race????
If youve been stopped from using full wets then perhaps you should point out what it says in the regs to whoever is trying to stop you, but then, when you dont even know the rules yourself I dont think youd be able to put up a valid argument, do you? LOL As for me, Id much rather ride when its "fecking wet" than when its just damp patches any day, and Id much rather ride in the wet than "winds gusting to force 8" (ie a bloody gale )as we did in the first Classic race in 1983!! lol
ammo
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - ian huntly - 06-09-2011
I believe that Mr Dedication, Kevin Ago Murphy, should be invited to be a riders representative....
He has a great affection for the Mountain Course and has as yet untapped knowledge and lots of sensible opinions.
Top brass may not like to hear what he says a lot of the time but it is now the time to listen to other people than those holding cheque books and pens.
What do YOU think >>///????
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - George - 06-09-2011
(06-09-2011, 07:14 AM)ammo Wrote:(05-09-2011, 11:17 PM)George Wrote:(05-09-2011, 10:08 PM)Jeff Kirby Wrote: George
I don't get involved with arguments about regulations but you owe Larry an apology!
APPENDIX I - APPLICABLE TO ALL MACHINES
1 TYRES
Owing to variations in weather conditions which can occur on the TT Course and in the interests of safety, only tyres having a moulded tread pattern will be permitted. No additional cutting of moulded tyres will be permitted. No slicks, cut or uncut, will be allowed. Metal valve caps (not extractor type) must be fitted. Valves must be of the short stub stem type.
APPENDIX II - APPLICABLE TO CLASSIC & FORMULA CLASSIC MACHINES ONLY
5 Tyres
No hand cut slicks or wet weather tyres will be permitted. Maximum tyre width, as stated on the manufacturer’s specification sheet, shall be 4.50” for Classic machines.
Tyres must be fitted with inner tubes.
Approved rear tyres for 500 cc machines are Avon AM22, Dunlop KR 124, KR124A and KR108. Other makes of tyre are acceptable providing the maximum width does not exceed 4.50” (114mm).
Full wets have never been allowed on Classic machines because they were not available during the period.
Jeff Kirby
Jeff, if this is the case then in needs clarification in the Technical department as riders have been told NO full wets ( rider had to remove them outside scrutinneering this year), The race service vans dont even carry them now at the MGP. Larry made a statement that a Pireli full wet tyre would do four laps in the Dry, this is utter tosh at the speeds we do, lucky to get one lap.
(05-09-2011, 10:54 PM)larryd Wrote:(05-09-2011, 10:08 PM)Jeff Kirby Wrote: George
I don't get involved with arguments about regulations but you owe Larry an apology!
APPENDIX I - APPLICABLE TO ALL MACHINES
1 TYRES
Owing to variations in weather conditions which can occur on the TT Course and in the interests of safety, only tyres having a moulded tread pattern will be permitted. No additional cutting of moulded tyres will be permitted. No slicks, cut or uncut, will be allowed. Metal valve caps (not extractor type) must be fitted. Valves must be of the short stub stem type.
APPENDIX II - APPLICABLE TO CLASSIC & FORMULA CLASSIC MACHINES ONLY
5 Tyres
No hand cut slicks or wet weather tyres will be permitted. Maximum tyre width, as stated on the manufacturer’s specification sheet, shall be 4.50” for Classic machines.
Tyres must be fitted with inner tubes.
Approved rear tyres for 500 cc machines are Avon AM22, Dunlop KR 124, KR124A and KR108. Other makes of tyre are acceptable providing the maximum width does not exceed 4.50” (114mm).
Full wets have never been allowed on Classic machines because they were not available during the period.
Jeff Kirby
Thank you Jeff - some of us can read !!
What is in the regs is not always kept to, we have been stoped from using full wets but allowed Pireli inters (wet).Could you do 4 laps on one set of wets at an average of over 115mph.
Another question, is a race at the MGP ever declared a wet race????
If youve been stopped from using full wets then perhaps you should point out what it says in the regs to whoever is trying to stop you, but then, when you dont even know the rules yourself I dont think youd be able to put up a valid argument, do you? LOL As for me, Id much rather ride when its "fecking wet" than when its just damp patches any day, and Id much rather ride in the wet than "winds gusting to force 8" (ie a bloody gale )as we did in the first Classic race in 1983!! lol
ammo
Larry if you had been at the presentation night you would have heard what the top riders had said about the use of tyres in the conditions raced.....
Still waiting to hear how you can race 4 laps at the front in dry conditions modern supersprt bike using full wet tyres, so are the rest of the paddock with bated breath
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - John Foster - 06-09-2011
(06-09-2011, 12:23 PM)George Wrote: Larry if you had been at the presentation night you would have heard what the top riders had said about the use of tyres in the conditions raced.....
Still waiting to hear how you can race 4 laps at the front in dry conditions modern supersprt bike using full wet tyres, so are the rest of the paddock with bated breath
George, did I miss something in this thread, or did you just turn left at Quarterbridge?
That's the most blatant attempt at sidestepping a mistake since Tony Blair was PM.
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - George - 06-09-2011
http://superbike-news.co.uk/wordpress/?p=4166
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - Jeff Kirby - 06-09-2011
I don't see why I should have to justify my position but if it stops misguided assumptions and inaccurate conclusions, I will.
1) Our role is to check for compliance to the regulations. If a machine comes into the bay with full wets fitted, the question would be asked if the intention is to run using those tyres. If the answer is "Yes" then the rider/ mechanic would be advised that the tyres would probably not last a full lap. However, if the rider / mechanic chooses not to act upon this advice then that is up to him / her. It is the same with chain tension, some riders have a lot of slack but others have virtually none. Machine preparation is the responsibility of the rider and as there is nothing in the regulations to say that wets cannot be used on modern machines or that there should be 25 mm of freeplay in the chain then it is the rider's decision.
2) There was a case during the Grand Prix where a bike was presented fitted with full wets. As in 1) the rider was asked if he intended to go out on those tyres and the answer was that he didn't want to get mud and gravel from the bottom paddock on his race tyres and that he intended to change the wheels in the parc ferme. As the machines should be presented ready to race, the rider was asked to change the wheels in our "sin bin" area so that we could check that all the lockwiring was replaced as per the regulations. The rider was happy to do this.
3) Please note that I do not hide behind a pseudonym.
Jeff Kirby
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - tripod - 06-09-2011
YES YES YES
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - George - 07-09-2011
(06-09-2011, 10:20 PM)Jeff Kirby Wrote: I don't see why I should have to justify my position but if it stops misguided assumptions and inaccurate conclusions, I will.
1) Our role is to check for compliance to the regulations. If a machine comes into the bay with full wets fitted, the question would be asked if the intention is to run using those tyres. If the answer is "Yes" then the rider/ mechanic would be advised that the tyres would probably not last a full lap. However, if the rider / mechanic chooses not to act upon this advice then that is up to him / her. It is the same with chain tension, some riders have a lot of slack but others have virtually none. Machine preparation is the responsibility of the rider and as there is nothing in the regulations to say that wets cannot be used on modern machines or that there should be 25 mm of freeplay in the chain then it is the rider's decision.
2) There was a case during the Grand Prix where a bike was presented fitted with full wets. As in 1) the rider was asked if he intended to go out on those tyres and the answer was that he didn't want to get mud and gravel from the bottom paddock on his race tyres and that he intended to change the wheels in the parc ferme. As the machines should be presented ready to race, the rider was asked to change the wheels in our "sin bin" area so that we could check that all the lockwiring was replaced as per the regulations. The rider was happy to do this.
3) Please note that I do not hide behind a pseudonym.
Jeff Kirby
Jeff decisions made by scrutineers is always respected and valued. Two question I would like clarified is why are riders allowed to race in the MGP when its raining but not the TT and why is a race at the MGP not declared a wet race when its raining (Mondays Junior race).
I can understand that you may not be able to give the answers for one reason or the other.
Thanks for also putting Larry straight that full wets wont last a race at the MGP.
Posted on another site by a a MGP rider of this year James Christy, he was not allowed to race on full wets in the junior race, stopped in the technical inspection. This is another rider among others that were told the same thing, Allan Jackson was anotther, forced him to pull in. Maybe some are getting the regs mixed up due to pressure or the fact the classics are inspected at the same time as the modern bikes.
Please look into this for us riders Jeff please.
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - Rich - 07-09-2011
George.
Larry's reference to a Pirelli "Wet" is actually the name for the Pirelli Intermediate. It will do 4 laps of a dry track (just-for a quick rider).
The Pirelli full wet is known as the "Rain".
Easy to confuse but they are the brand names printed on the sidewalls.
I have ridden the Manx a few times and personally would not race on a proper wet road as we had this year. What baffled me was why the races ran at the time when in some cases a delay of a couple of hours would see improved conditions. I think the idea of a riders "straw poll" isn't a bad idea either.
Rich
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - Lee - 09-09-2011
Should bikes race in the wet?
(visibility must be taking into account)
As a spectator I'd say yes.
For the IOM economy and financial commitments from teams/riders I'd say yes.
As a competitor I'd be off to the pub.
Our track is on a wee Island in the Irish sea. It even navigates over a mountain. If it were to p!sh down for the fortnight would that be a surprise?
It's easy for me to comment as I lay in my armchair but that's my 2 cents spent.
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - ade! - 09-09-2011
well it was nearly an argument, but fizzled out like a damp squib.
of course bikes should race in the wet - not two foot of standing water wet, but raining type wet. if we stop racing in the wet, then what comes next? ban racing after a long, dry spell in case a stray spark sets fire to one of the poor manx farmer's fields? ban racing if it's too hot in case the melted tarmac fills in the treads and turns them into slicks? ban people with beards? grey hair? women? hippys? leave the damned racing as it is. if it's wet, put a rain type tyre on a modern bike and nice treaded on classic. if a rider don't like the wet, then all well and good, get a few cans and spectate. i'm all for safety, but the throttle goes both ways and if you're stupid enough to go into a corner in the wet the same speed you'd go into it in the dry, then whose fault is that? this is the british isles - not daytona, florida. i reckon there's about £1.50's worth there.
ade!
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - ian charlton - 09-09-2011
Ade,why not give it a go,. Looking at the riders who pulled in on the first lap of the junior, they certainly did not enjoy riding in the wet,most would not agree with your comments, but we,re all entitled to an opinion. The main reason this thread has come about is the fact that most would have welcomed a delay of this race. I would drink stale beer if i was choking ,but i,d rather have one straight from the barrel.
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - tripod - 09-09-2011
(09-09-2011, 09:48 AM)ade! Wrote: well it was nearly an argument, but fizzled out like a damp squib.
of course bikes should race in the wet - not two foot of standing water wet, but raining type wet. if we stop racing in the wet, then what comes next? ban racing after a long, dry spell in case a stray spark sets fire to one of the poor manx farmer's fields? ban racing if it's too hot in case the melted tarmac fills in the treads and turns them into slicks? ban people with beards? grey hair? women? hippys? leave the damned racing as it is. if it's wet, put a rain type tyre on a modern bike and nice treaded on classic. if a rider don't like the wet, then all well and good, get a few cans and spectate. i'm all for safety, but the throttle goes both ways and if you're stupid enough to go into a corner in the wet the same speed you'd go into it in the dry, then whose fault is that? this is the british isles - not daytona, florida. i reckon there's about £1.50's worth there.
ade!
I couldn't agree more.
No waiting for the weather to get better, start the race on time.
No consulting the competitors.(they will never agree) if you don't want to ride then don't.
The fact of the matter is that you can't go as fast in the wet as you can in the dry, if you do you fall off. Riders seem to want to beat lap records everytime they go out, what ever happened to winning the race in the slowest possible time?
And just in case any one of you lot want to answer back, I am a current TT competitor.
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - ade! - 09-09-2011
like i said ian, there's wet and there's over the top wet. which was it? if people don't want to race in the wet it's up to them, but don't ban it. if every race in the british isles was not run because of rain we'd hardly see a damned race. rain is a great leveller. look at nigel davies a few years ago [till the race was stopped]' look at chris walker from last place in holland winning a wsbk race. ditto tom sykes last weekend. i'm sure joey would have an opinion about wet weather racing as well as a lot of the irish lads. if it's wet to the point of running water across the roads, then yes, delay or run it some other time, but banning it? no. i already gave it a go, but due to finances and a very unreliable trident engine that tried to blow up every ten minutes, i gave up. mind you it did a whole race meeting at mallory on a thimble full of corn oil one time - but it was wet, so it kept the revs down. personally i wouldn't drink stale beer, but there again we're all entitled to our opinion aren't we?
ade!
p.s. nice one tripod :-)
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - an old man returns - 09-09-2011
Here we go...............
I raced Monday morning in the 350 classic (skinny treaded tyres) it was rubbish weather, very wet, very very windy on the mountain and then it started raining, not drizzle RAIN. I have never raced at the MGP in those conditions before. Practiced a few times though.
Did I enjoy it, hell yes. Would I have enjoyed it more in the dry hell yes x 2.
For me it worked out pretty well, I had a badly slipping clutch from the end of lap one so much so I only used four out of five gears, so the conditions played to me, well sort of.
Plenty of Junior riders asking about track conditions as I walked down from parc ferme.
Personally I would not have started on the dry tyre many bikes were shod with, however a fair few riders (the winner included I think) had the wet tyre on (not the rain tyre), this tyre looks like a dry tyre but with quite a few extra 'lines' in it. Just the job for the conditions. I would have started on that tyre too.
Phil has a difficult job and sometimes damned if he does (remember when he cancelled practice because it was wet and a lot of riders were not happy) and damned if he doesnt. A fair point to note is he would have received reports from sectors around the course and the travelling marshals too.
Hindsight is a wonderful argumental tool and having experienced the conditions in the morning a one hour delay would have been helpfull. But that was only fully realised one hour after the Junior race had started!
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - ian charlton - 09-09-2011
Well that,s a few opinions from well and experienced riders and enthusiasts,and they,re all well thought out and fair. Personally,i go along with the [school of thought], that a competitor makes their own mind up as to the safety angle and rides accordingly without outside pressure. We couldn,t obtain correct tyres at short notice,we were too late and the paddock suppliers plus Padgetts were sold out, we incorrectly thought our full wets were allowed,we,d made a mistake and were not prepared,our mind was made up for us. But ,correct tyres or not,the boys who pulled off or in on the first lap made us feel better about not starting that particular race. And i agree that the organisers sometimes have tough decisions to make,they,ll never please everybody and i wouldn,t like the job. Running local moto cross meetings showed me what a thankless task that is.
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - George - 09-09-2011
The MGP is run on Public roads and as such oil, petrol diesel etc get dumped on the road, in the dry its not always possible to spot it if its soaked in and dried. When it rains, the water will losen any contaminates in the road surface and no tyre could take care of this problem. Area of new tarmak have been laid on the TT track just a week before the races started and this two can omit oils if it rains.
Who remembers the 1999 production race at the TT and how many riders come to grief, is was so bad the local hospital ran out of Beds (fact) and its not very nice spending 2 days in a fecking ward chair.
Still waiting for the answer why no racing in the rain at the TT
RE: Should bikes race in the wet ? - tripod - 09-09-2011
(09-09-2011, 03:26 PM)George Wrote: The MGP is run on Public roads and as such oil, petrol diesel etc get dumped on the road, in the dry its not always possible to spot it if its soaked in and dried. When it rains, the water will losen any contaminates in the road surface and no tyre could take care of this problem. Area of new tarmak have been laid on the TT track just a week before the races started and this two can omit oils if it rains.
Who remembers the 1999 production race at the TT and how many riders come to grief, is was so bad the local hospital ran out of Beds (fact) and its not very nice spending 2 days in a fecking ward chair.
Still waiting for the answer why no racing in the rain at the TT
Because the bloody superstars don't want to ride in the wet!!!!!!