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+--- Thread: Course improvements (/showthread.php?tid=18448)
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RE: Course improvements - SILJA - 14-12-2014
(14-12-2014, 10:15 PM)Alfie Noakes Wrote: What did you mean by this then ? - "Which means , for my eyes, that the modern big bikes already are too fast for the circuit". The road/corner changes at Quarry, Windy and Brandish weren't specifically/uniquely made to make the bikes go or lap faster they were made to improve the ease of use for the public with their cars/bikes/trucks etc on open roads and much of the road surface improvements and repairs are what happens naturally over time with repairs due to degradation, if they wanted to make it "easier" and faster then the run from Ginger Hall to Ramsey would get properly smoothed out - but it hasn't has it ?. The only part of the circuit I can remember being specifically changed/worked to aid the racing on is the crest of Bray Hill where there was road planing works involved with the bump and manhole cover after the tragic sidecar race in 1978. The recent changes at Hillberry involved closed road speed testing but again the road surface was due for renewal and the racing was taken into account, it wasn't specifically changed or altered because of an intrinsic problem with bike racing or to make the bikes faster through there - the dip/depression on the apex area is still there. The course is what it is and is matched by the evolution of man and his machine and speaking from a fair bit of very personal/mates/fellows experience since growing up on the IoM - a racing bike is never ever going to be too fast.
Of course I fully understand that the changes on the circuit aren't made to improve the lap speeds. But as a spin off effect, a better surface to ride on creates faster speeds.
I believe that that's the main reason for the improving lap times. About your question to me: "What did you mean by this then ?" - "Which means , for my eyes, that the modern big bikes already are too fast for the circuit". My reply is that "for my eyes" means my very personal opinion. I will never try to force someone else to have the same opinion as me. But a fact is that 2006 a rider couldn't give full gas at 85% of the lap on a big bike. What does that mean?
RE: Course improvements - Alfie Noakes - 15-12-2014
It means the rider has to ride the machine under him accordingly but as fast as is humanly possible for those lovely moments in time .. which is the whole and total point of getting you and your machine onto Glencrutchery Rd, one lap is totally different to the next, a few inches off line, somebody to pass, a heavier bike after a pit stop, she won't quite pull top for some reason, she doesn't feel the same as yesterday .. all those things and more. My advice is - see if you can get hold of some parc ferme/pit pass's and have a look at the faces and body language of the guys with their bikes, see if they look bothered about how much time they will spend at full throttle.
RE: Course improvements - SILJA - 15-12-2014
(15-12-2014, 12:13 AM)Alfie Noakes Wrote: It means the rider has to ride the machine under him accordingly but as fast as is humanly possible for those lovely moments in time .. which is the whole and total point of getting you and your machine onto Glencrutchery Rd, one lap is totally different to the next, a few inches off line, somebody to pass, a heavier bike after a pit stop, she won't quite pull top for some reason, she doesn't feel the same as yesterday .. all those things and more. My advice is - see if you can get hold of some parc ferme/pit pass's and have a look at the faces and body language of the guys with their bikes, see if they look bothered about how much time they will spend at full throttle.
I believe that I know what I'm talking about. I've been in the pits and paddock and so on several times as a mechanic. As well as a photographer with accreditation and fireproof clothing. I doubt that we can go ahead to get a conclusion of this discussion. Thank you for a stimulating chat.
RE: Course improvements - Alfie Noakes - 15-12-2014
I believe you do too Silja - your course info and enthusiasm tells me that .. for me the bikes travelling at speed on public roads is what started the event initially and what the evolution of man and his machine have made the event we see now. I've seen in other walks of life where small discussions regarding "should this be happening" can lead and I'm equally enthusiastic and defensive of the TT. Seasonal Rgds :0)
RE: Course improvements - Patf - 15-12-2014
Slightly off topic, but does any part of the course now stand out at where improvements would decrease lap times ? I suppose I'm thinking of Ginger Hall to Ramsey being smoothed out. Though never having raced there how much time could be gained ?
RE: Course improvements - Kursaal Flyer - 16-12-2014
Patf . If any part of the course had been resufaced by the same team that did the A127 coming into Southend this side of Basildon a few years back the times would deffo be down. Its like a bumpy roller coaster and its supposed to be flat .
RE: Course improvements - DaveOldham - 20-12-2014
I was always led to believe that there isn't a lot that can be done regarding the Ginger Hall - Ramsey section due to the proliferation of tree roots under the road. Resurfacing will make the Tarmac smoother but won't affect the general undulations. Of course I may be wrong on this...
RE: Course improvements - SILJA - 26-12-2014
I knew I've heard it before! Someone saying that the bikes are too fast for a track. Now I know where. It's in the old film "The Road Racers". I'm not a native but for my ears it sounds like a rider maybe Joey Dunlop says, "the bikes are getting far too quick for the investments of the course" concerning the Cookstown circuit... That proves that I'm not alone...
RE: Course improvements - taxman - 31-12-2014
(15-12-2014, 10:45 PM)Patf Wrote: Slightly off topic, but does any part of the course now stand out at where improvements would decrease lap times ? I suppose I'm thinking of Ginger Hall to Ramsey being smoothed out. Though never having raced there how much time could be gained ?
The problem with that stretch is twofold;
Firstly as already pointed out, there are numerous tree roots etc. These are continually moving as they grow and die and this means that any surface is inherently unstable.
Secondly, look at the geography. On your right you have hills and on your left (if you ever explore it in any detail) is the flood plain of the Sulby River. This is a very swampy area as it provides a route for water to run of the hills and into the river. The road has been built on the edge of the swamp which means that under the surface the ground is soft. The passage of lorries and busses over the top just adds to the problems the tree roots create.
There's a similar swampiness (is that a word?) on the roads from Sulby Bridge to St Judes and Sulby Crossroads to Sandygate. Both have been resurfaced comparatively recently and both are now as bumpy as they ever were. The Sandygate Road (Clanagh Road) is a shocker. I remember riding a Suzuki GP100 down it as a teenager and being bounced off the seat by the road surface.
RE: Course improvements - Dougboy - 02-01-2015
(26-12-2014, 06:02 PM)SILJA Wrote: I knew I've heard it before! Someone saying that the bikes are too fast for a track. Now I know where. It's in the old film "The Road Racers". I'm not a native but for my ears it sounds like a rider maybe Joey Dunlop says, "the bikes are getting far too quick for the investments of the course" concerning the Cookstown circuit... That proves that I'm not alone...
"I think the big bikes have been here long enough and it's time to have a limit of 600cc." Steve Hislop, 1989.
RE: Course improvements - Alfie Noakes - 02-01-2015
Is the very hard ridden 600cc 128mph lap speed with higher corner speed safer in some way then ?, are there less accidents on 600's ? .. If it's too fast for you then don't watch or get on the bike in the first place. You'll also have 3 less races to watch every year, then very soon when the 600's are too fast - 'zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
RE: Course improvements - Splashdown - 02-01-2015
Having ridden a 650 in the last two year's Super Twins Manx, I can assure you that these bikes seem SO slow round the TT course.
For most of the way it's 5th and 6th gear, and they never seem too quick for the course. 600s are around the horsepower that 750s had when Hizzy complained that they were too fast for the course. Interesting.
If you ask the modern rider, I think they would tend to agree that a Superbike round the TT course is a real handful, and only a top rider at the peak of his strength can get the best out of them. That's always been the case. They were saying that about Guthrie, Frith, Simpson, Woods, and Daniell before WW2.
I'm sure that a 600 would be a fabulous bike to race round the TT course, I'd love to have a go. But I'm sure that I could not now cope with a Superbike.
It should not escape your notice that the course has really changed over the years, and the mindless obliteration of Windy and Brandish, has done nothing to enhance the quality of the course. It has merely highlighted how fast the top bikes are travelling around most of the course, i.e. between 160 and 190mph.
As Alfie Noakes has said, quite rightly, are there any less accidents in the smaller classes? I really don't think so, but I'm sure that there a statistics to show which way the accident figures are going.
RE: Course improvements - Dougboy - 02-01-2015
(02-01-2015, 01:33 PM)Splashdown Wrote: Having ridden a 650 in the last two year's Super Twins Manx, I can assure you that these bikes seem SO slow round the TT course.In fairness Splashdown, I'm fairly sure (and a local could probably confirm) that the Brandish was a bit an accident blackspot for normal traffic and that was the chief driver for its alteration.
For most of the way it's 5th and 6th gear, and they never seem too quick for the course. 600s are around the horsepower that 750s had when Hizzy complained that they were too fast for the course. Interesting.
If you ask the modern rider, I think they would tend to agree that a Superbike round the TT course is a real handful, and only a top rider at the peak of his strength can get the best out of them. That's always been the case. They were saying that about Guthrie, Frith, Simpson, Woods, and Daniell before WW2.
I'm sure that a 600 would be a fabulous bike to race round the TT course, I'd love to have a go. But I'm sure that I could not now cope with a Superbike.
It should not escape your notice that the course has really changed over the years, and the mindless obliteration of Windy and Brandish, has done nothing to enhance the quality of the course. It has merely highlighted how fast the top bikes are travelling around most of the course, i.e. between 160 and 190mph.
As Alfie Noakes has said, quite rightly, are there any less accidents in the smaller classes? I really don't think so, but I'm sure that there a statistics to show which way the accident figures are going.
RE: Course improvements - Splashdown - 02-01-2015
It's a fair point Dougboy. However, I DO think it would have been much better to have either: Dual carriageway at Brandish, so that the original corner could have remained, or: to have only opened it out to create more visibility.
The police tell me that opening out Windy has made the 32nd more dangerous to traffic travelling in the opposite direction to the race track on open roads, because they (all traffic) arrive at the 32nd much more quickly. Wasn't this obvious?
RE: Course improvements - Alfie Noakes - 03-01-2015
I don't recall Steve Hislop complaining about the genuine jewel of a factory RVF750 RC30 that Honda brought over for him, the thing was a missile but handled very well as do today's Superbikes, I can remember watching up on the Mountain and the way that RVF accelerated out of Bungalow up towards Brandywell was astounding compared to the other bikes. The Superbike's of today are fast but they handle, steer, track and change direction very well and the TT challenge for me has and always will be just how fast the rider can get himself and his machine around the course.
RE: Course improvements - Splashdown - 03-01-2015
You're bang on Alfie. I rode Hizzy's RVF. Unforgettable experience. What a bike!
Yes, today's 1000cc bikes, handle, and stop, and have unbelievable acceleration.
I don't see many "tank slappers" like we used to. Adjustable offset forks have cured all that.
In the 30s even though they only had 40 BHP the riders still needed lifting off the bikes after a race, such was the effort to hold them onto the track, and withstand the bumps. Plus, don't forget they were doing SEVEN laps, which took nearly 3 hours.
RE: Course improvements - c iom tt - 03-01-2015
I think first and formost everyone is forgeting that the Mountain Circuit is a public road for most of the year. The authoritys will have no hesitation whatsover in altering any part of the course on the ground of safty for the genral public if they though it is feasable and cost effective.
For me, you only have to look at the changes to the run into Govenors to see that. which is effectively a by-pass now. ( although in fairness, the changes there were more to do with increasing the traffic flow at peak times)
The changes to Windy and Brandish have just allowed the trafic to travel at a higher speed around them more safely, but in the case of Brandish, I dont see the point.
RE: Course improvements - Alfie Noakes - 03-01-2015
You don't see the bikes steering "around" the headstock anymore or weaving in a straight line - watching some of the older proddy based bikes coming down past the pits in a straightish line was scary enough and you used to see bikes getting well and truly out of shape anywhere that required a high speed change of direction, these days the bike will respond positively to big pull/push on the bars and standing on the pegs - just look at JMcG's nearly straight clip-ons, he's properly getting hold of the bike, DJ was very much the same but you didn't see the bike complaining too much. As mentioned by myself and others the course has been altered but it hasn't been altered to make a bike lap faster just to help/aid public use, if you look at Hillberry the dip is still there on the apex and I can't see any other advantages other than maybe a constant surface right up to the hedge - that never used to bother Brian Morrison through there though - every single lap the bike properly right over and out to the white line and more, I would like to know though why they held high speed closed road testing - I don't recall that happening anywhere else, maybe it's an insurance or liability issue ?.
RE: Course improvements - Alfie Noakes - 03-01-2015
There was something very special about that RVF Nick, just looking at her close up in pits/scrutineering was enough, never mind being lucky enough to ride, everything about it had that little bit "more"
RE: Course improvements - Dougboy - 04-01-2015
(03-01-2015, 12:07 PM)Alfie Noakes Wrote: I don't recall Steve Hislop complaining about the genuine jewel of a factory RVF750 RC30 that Honda brought over for him, the thing was a missile but handled very well as do today's Superbikes, I can remember watching up on the Mountain and the way that RVF accelerated out of Bungalow up towards Brandywell was astounding compared to the other bikes. The Superbike's of today are fast but they handle, steer, track and change direction very well and the TT challenge for me has and always will be just how fast the rider can get himself and his machine around the course.
In the account I have, he is not complaining about the HRC prepped RC30, though he did swap the forks and shock for those from his own. He described it as a jet, and was arriving at sections so much faster that he had to recalibrate his riding. That's what lead him to make the comments about the big bikes being too much. An excursion onto the footpath in Kirk Michael and other tragic events that week probably contributed also.