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+--- Thread: Inquest today? (/showthread.php?tid=6294)
RE: Inquest today? - Hilary M - 15-03-2008
The inquest is over guys.I was there,being greatly involved ,and it was a difficult time,so we will have to wait to see what the final outcome will be.No doubt,there will be far more care taken with many aspects,especially communication between all parties involved in the organisation of the racing
RE: Inquest today? - cargo - 15-03-2008
Hilary many of us know of the great courage and strength you have shown since the incident at 26th
I for one am very proud of you and all those involved.
I can only hope the inquest comes to the right conclusions.
For the future lets hope everyone gets it right.................
Enough for now.....................
RE: Inquest today? - Phil Windrum - 15-03-2008
I have to say I find it easier to believe the signs were never there rather than being nicked. Obviously there is evidence above that forbidden signs have been taken which is deplorable, but did Keith not testify (in one of the news items above) that he had never seen any in the years he marshalled at Joey's. For what it's worth I was there on the wednesday and there definitely weren't any cos we looked. This would mean someone would have to have stopped at Joey's specifically every year to take ALL the signs. We watched from above the layby but others did watch below. As Tripod sez there are places that are not prohibited that I wouldn't be happy to watch out of "a well developed sense of self preservation"... tho him going down Bray Hill sideways doesn't really back this up!!!
The marshals do a bloody fantastic job, can only marshal what's put in front of them and should be given our support.
This was a terrible tragedy and my heart still goes out to anyone involved on the day.
RE: Inquest today? - DCLUCIE - 18-03-2008
Personnally I agree that there is too much finger pointing, but before we stop can I have a go...
The real people you should be blaming and shouting about are the people who nicked the signs or any sign for that matter that could be or are designating areas that are prohibitted.
The marshals have a tough enough job trying to keep spectators off the track and legs behind hedges and the such without having to look out for idiots nicking signs.
Its down to every single one of you to stop people like this. This is for your safety and also the safety of others that love and enjoy the sport as much as we do. Its down to you to help protect the TT as much as anyone else. If anyone comes to you for a signture on a sign thats obviously been nicked from somewhere take it off them find out where it is from and report it.
I think there is an opportunity here for the organisers to sort some sort of poster or competition that can used as an insentive to get signatures on something that doesn't included signage from the course.
I also believe that there is a very good possability the signs were never there, but we still need to support the people who stand out there doing this job we all, at some stage, have tried to avoid like the plague, whether it be a club meeting or a big event such as the TT. They do a great job and need everyones support for the future.
RE: Inquest today? - Hilary M - 18-03-2008
Sensible ideas Mattie and Clucie.Obviously I cannot comment about the signage, but it really brings it home how dangerous and stupid it is to steal them.This tragic accident has really highlighted that fact.Maybe leaflets could be given to everyone arriving on the Island for the TT,stating the risk of prosecution for stealing them,and posters in the sea terminal and airport. It needs attending to NOW, not two weeks before the event
RE: Inquest today? - FC - 18-03-2008
First of all lets get one thing right, the marshalls at this sector did a first class job in what must have been a difficult situation, lets just let that part go.
The ACU or who ever will always blame some other person, never taking the blame themselves. Having looked at some on board dvd slowed right down I have to say that I can not see any signs on that bank at the 26th.
I would like to give an example of two , what I would call dodgy deeds.
Colin Breeze was killed at quarry bends and witnesses said it was down to a manhole cover being lower than the road surface, we went straight to the area after the roads open only to find that work had been done to raise or even out the problem within hours of the crash, WHY.
Joakim Karlson was killed at Douglas corner, on the night he was killed me and Christa went down to thank the family who looked after Joakim while lay in the garden waiting for the van to pick him up. While stood in the garden talking and it was about 11-30pm, all of a sudden a couple of air bags were thrown over the hedge, the same air bags not being in the area previously Why.
If something is broke fix it, dont just try and cover it upbe honest and take what ever on the chin.
RE: Inquest today? - FC - 18-03-2008
On Board Mad Sunday 2007.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9slVzA7vVc
What happened last year was not the first but lets hope its the last and an end to this list
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Snaefell_Mountain_Course_fatal_accidents
RE: Inquest today? - Harvey T - 21-03-2008
The report is out and its hard hitting. As I said before, I’m disappointed even in the way these tragic accidents are dealt with immediately after. I'm surprised we are not openly discussing this as the action taken, as a result, could well be the future of the TT.
Does anyone know where we can see the full report.
RE: Inquest today? - Stella - 21-03-2008
Surprised that there is little or nothing on any of the "Roads" sites, i appreciated the need for restraint whilst the inquest was ongoing but now ?
Would also like to read the full report.
RE: Inquest today? - MV - 21-03-2008
Its all so very quiet.
I guess there is a lot of shock.
Plus people are being very cagey to.
I cant blame them
I know a lot will have heeded Helen and Cargos advice
.
But YES, it could well be a crossroads.
If we d start debating, take it steady.
Be aware of feelings
Helens for a (huge) start!
RE: Inquest today? - Stella - 21-03-2008
Yes i appreciate what your saying Mike, being honest i was very shocked by the verdicts.
I simply cannot imagine anyone volunteering to marshal around the TT given the verdict of the coroner.
Sorry if this offends any marshals who i have the utmost respect for.
But in the future what sort of support are they going to get in the event of a similar situation ?
Another point i am slightly confused about is, what it explains in http://www.gov.im/dha/police/coroner.xml regarding
" What is an Inquest?
An Inquest is usually opened primarily to record that a death has occurred and to identify the deceased. It will then be adjourned until any police enquires and the Coroner’s investigations are completed. Once all the information has been collected, a full inquest hearing will be held. (Note:- in some circumstances the Inquest will not merely be opened and adjourned but will proceed to its conclusion at one hearing). The Inquest is a factual inquiry to determine:
Who has died
When and where the death occurred
How that person came by their death
An Inquest is not a trial, and the Coroner does not apportion blame. "
Unless i am mistaken, it doesn`t read like that too me.
Can i also just add that this reply is posted with the greatest respect to all those involved in the tragic accident.
RE: Inquest today? - Phil Windrum - 21-03-2008
Not a legal expert by any means but have unfortunately met a few coroners. I think the coroner can make recommendations but these are not legally binding. It seems he can pretty much say what he likes? As an example, say a person died in hospital as a result of medical negligance, this may become apparent during the inquest but the coroner would not be in a position to take action against anyone involved, that would be for other courts. He does apparently say at one point about having no powers to ban race officials etc. Any "blame" he has made is perhaps not the same as "blame" in other court proceedings which would be a whole different ball game.
Not being from the IOM I don't know of this guy but it's clear he is well liked and I'm certainly not trying to defend him!
Also, I don't think any official reports are released of inquests in IOM so we just have news reports to go on.
RE: Inquest today? - Harvey T - 21-03-2008
Yeh, really surprised more isn’t being said and credit to this site. I think the authorities will be desperately trying to come back from this and I would imagine sweeping changes will need to happen and seen to be happening. To be honest, it’s not hard to work out that after such a report litigation has, sadly, got to be a strong possibility.
RE: Inquest today? - Stella - 21-03-2008
Thanks Phil, appreciate the reply.
RE: Inquest today? - davegess - 21-03-2008
From what i have been able to read on the internet it seems that the coroner is not blaming the marshals on the ground, they did everything they could do and had no blame on the spectator area not being marked - they had no way to know it was a no go area- but he is pointing a finger those higher up who seem to be unwilling to accept responsibility. No one seems to be willing or able to say "this is who is responsible for signage and this is who is responsible for determining which area is signed." All the people who would be in that position pointed fingers at others or claimed ignorance.
The marshals on the sight DID NOTHING WRONG AND HAD NO WAY OF KNOWING THAT THE SPECTATORS WERE IN A NO GO AREA. I just want to emphasize that because I am sure they are feeling horrible about the whole thing and they did everything right.
If the TT is to survive and thrive it MUST operate in a modern open manner. Mistakes will be made and people will be hurt, it is a dangerous activity but it is HOW the organizers react to mistakes that will determine the future.
The good news seems to be that, based on statements from the organizers, they are willing to change and improve.
RE: Inquest today? - Phil Windrum - 21-03-2008
No probs Stella.
I think what this terrible situation shows is that when something catastrophic happens it is rarely the fault of one or several individuals, rather it is a whole chain of events all lining up at the same time, some of which may appear highly unlikely, and is a failure of "the system." Lack of communication is ALWAYS a factor. It is natural that those involved were defensive since the coroner did seem to want to apportion blame. Perhaps if there had been a "no blame" atmosphere during proceedings then he may have got the straight answers he was looking for.
You can only go so far tho. Motorcycle racing is dangerous as we all know and a crashed motorbike can do wierd and unpredictable things. I don't know if any of us would have looked at the 26th milestone and forseen that this could happen. While changes are obviously going to be made, the TT will remain the greatest sporting event on the planet.
RE: Inquest today? - Harvey T - 21-03-2008
Davegess, I think you've got it about right there.
Phil, just to take one point from your above post where you say...."I don't know if any of us would have looked at the 26th milestone and forseen that this could happen".
Someone in the past thought it was right for a no go area, so i dont know if I agree with that part..........no disrespect.
RE: Inquest today? - alf885 - 21-03-2008
With respect I'd like to add the following point to this debate regarding the 26th;
Was the 26th milestone a prohibited viewing area? Take a look at the pages below taken from the free booklet The Guide (TT 2006).
![[Image: 2350222270_4e297414d4.jpg?v=0]](http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2293/2350222270_4e297414d4.jpg?v=0)
![[Image: 2350222418_1fd2356020.jpg?v=0]](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3243/2350222418_1fd2356020.jpg?v=0)
The second page shows a map covering the section from Ramsey to the Creg. The green shading depicts viewing areas. I'm not suggesting that this document is definitive but it does not exclude the 26th. I have viewed from the Gooseneck up to the 26th (2005) and I did not recall any signs forbidding spectators. My reference point is Brandywell, the outside of the bend is a prohibited area, I know that from my own experience I've been there and seen the signs, the map does not show it as a viewing point so is accurate at that point of the course. Therefore I would suggest, in 2006 anyway, that spectators were advised that viewing from the 26th was permitted. On page 21 a key to the maps describes the shaded green sections as "Spectator Areas - subject to the approval of marshals."
Therefore, if marshalls knew that the area was prohibited then it is probable that they would have policed it accordingly. My personal experiences of marshals as a spectator is very positve. They are courteous, knowledgable and passionate about the races but always above everything else serious about their duties and safety. No matter where I viewed from the marshals have always been excellent. So if the marshals did not know it was a prohibited area then who else would?
From what I have read so far I do not get the impression that Mr. Moyles points the finger of blame at the marshals. If fault can be identified I'd agree with Phil, the system was found wanting when faced with an unforseeable event.
RE: Inquest today? - Tom Loughridge - 21-03-2008
I am reluctant to give an opinion on the information that has been posted in respect of the inquest, however my sympathies are with the marshalls, to me time and time again they fall into the line of fire when there is a fatality, D Js tragic accident comes to mind.
The burden on them must be immense for unpaid volunteers, particularly since the Merseybeat boy Culverhouse withdrew the Police support from the marshalls and they now have no backup to enforce their responsibilities. Perhaps the Manx CC envisaged the time when one of his officers would be in the firing line because of an ihcident beyond the officers control.
I have been in very close proximity to three fatal accidents two in the TT and one at the S100, one incident was at Rhencullen in the 71 Senior, I was flat out slipstream a very experienced and safe Len Williams 350 Aermacchi riding a T500 proddy bike, we were not touring because we both got silver reps.
We were on the right line hard to the left a newcomer on a Manx 500 passed us totally off line hard on the right of the road, Williams and myself instinctively sat up and shut of in shock or whatever in anticipation, tragically that rider was never going to make it on the line he had chosen to overtake. The machine and rider hit the right wall and completely aviated high in the air back across the front of Williams into the side of the house in the dip, we were both lucky not to be brought down by the rebounding machine and debri.
Being mindfull that this was a fairly lightweight 45 bhp 140 mph max machine it was terrifying to think of the additional carnage therr would have been had the bike bounced back into us instead of across the road. There is a bit of difference today with 100 bhp 200 mph heavyweight missiles.
We have probably all seen the video of the rider down Bray Hill with mother of all tankslappers and machine and rider sliding up the road in a cloud of dust and flying bits. That could easily have been different if it had hit a kerb or wall and rebounded into a front garden or the barriers at th bottom were there would be spectactors.
Such a tragedy can happen anywhere with todays machines if they get out of control, thats road racing and it can never be made 100% safe.
Whatever anyone says let us hope this inquest can bring closure for the relatives of those victims and those who suffered terrible injuries and witnessd the event, the horrors and trauma of all those involved and witnessing such an incident cannot be imagined by any of us.
RE: Inquest today? - MV - 21-03-2008
I am very proud of the response on this website and with the people involved.
The depth of feeling is clear for all to read and yet nobody has overstepped the mark thus far!
lets all remain passionate and at the same time calm.
If this great event is to even continue, cool heads will called for!