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+--- Thread: stupid rules (/showthread.php?tid=6796)
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RE: stupid rules - FC - 03-06-2008
DCLUCIE Wrote:Just a quick question... is there anything in the supplementary regs?
Could not find any, so whats your opinion is the bike legal or not.
But the FIM rules state that external fitted quickshifters can be used on superstock machines
RE: stupid rules - smokey125 - 03-06-2008
Starting at the top, as far as I'm aware so this may well be wrong I thought the manufactures and teams wanted to run to superstock and supersport rules as it saved them building special bikes just for the TT.
There would be no point in having the superstock race if you didn't run to the class rules as everyone would just run a superbike.
Be careful quoting FIM regs.
From TT regs; Machines must comply with the2008 MCRCB Supersport Regulations.
From MCRCB; These are the technical regulations of the MCRCB and in principle follow those of the FIM, in case of clarification the FIM regulations may be referred to, however these regulations take precedence. If you are competing in FIM events you must follow the regulations as stated in the FIM Road Race Technical Rules, as they may differ.
Lets also be very clear as to what we are talking about as superstock and supersport rules are very different. supersport allows quickshifters superstock doesn't unless fitted to the homologation bike.
As for engines it doesn't mention anywhere that I've seen that engines must be of the same year. Only that they must be to homologated standard as such if the engine hasn't changed from 06 to 08 then that's fine. I agree FC that if any one part changes the bike need a new homologation however is the engine number prefix is the same and it's specification is the same as the later one why can't you use it? Let’s also remember that the homologation bike may not be exactly the same bike on the web site. The manufactures are not daft they will put through a bike that will work best for them.
As far as I can tell from reading through the rules quickly there is nothing that anyone has mentioned in the thread that is illegal. Some things that may not be in the spirit of the rules but nothing that's illegal. In my opinion all these people are doing is exploring every possible avenue available to get a competitive advantage. At the end of the day in may ways some of these things are no different to what Bob Heath used to do at the classic manx or Brian Read when he changed tanks in the pits during the Junior TT, not illegal just bending the rules to the limits. I could list many other occasions like this.
Not sure where you read the shock bit steve from MCRCB sstock regs; Rear suspension unit (shock absorber) may be modified or replaced
So is the bike legal, impossible to answer without knowing what the homologation spec is.
RE: stupid rules - Harvey T - 03-06-2008
This is how the bull $ factor comes into the event. If they’re not allowed quick shifters then why have they got them in the first place. They should be taken off the machine, end of story, no grey area, simple, clear. Anyone with one fitted, disabled or not, is not allowed to go out. How easy is that.
RE: stupid rules - FC - 03-06-2008
the 2008 Yamaha is a totally new bike and has been homologated and listed within the FIM regs, as it says here>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/produc...ation.aspx
Completly different from the 07 bike
RE: stupid rules - FC - 03-06-2008
Harvey T Wrote:This is how the bull $ factor comes into the event. If they’re not allowed quick shifters then why have they got them in the first place. They should be taken off the machine, end of story, no grey area, simple, clear. Anyone with one fitted, disabled or not, is not allowed to go out. How easy is that.
From the FIM regs on Super stock machines
2.7.6.31 Transmission/Gearbox
An external quick-shift system on the gear selector (including wire and
potentiometer) may be added.
Other modifications to gearbox or selector mechanism
RE: stupid rules - veefour - 03-06-2008
smokey125 Wrote:At the end of the day in may ways some of these things are no different to what Bob Heath used to do at the classic manx or Brian Read when he changed tanks in the pits during the Junior TT, not illegal just bending the rules to the limits. I could list many other occasions like this.I seem to remember going back quite a few years a rider (i can't remember who) punching his tank toward the finish to reduce the volume so it could'nt be deemed as oversize !!
RE: stupid rules - smokey125 - 03-06-2008
FC Wrote:the 2008 Yamaha is a totally new bike and has been homologated and listed within the FIM regs, as it says here>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I can't see the link but if that is truly the case then Platers bike wasn't legal.
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/produc...ation.aspx
Completlt differnt from the 07 bike
FC Wrote:Harvey T Wrote:Harvey T Wrote:
This is how the bull $ factor comes into the event. If they’re not allowed quick shifters then why have they got them in the first place. They should be taken off the machine, end of story, no grey area, simple, clear. Anyone with one fitted, disabled or not, is not allowed to go out. How easy is that.
From the FIM regs on Super stock machines
2.7.6.31 Transmission/Gearbox
An external quick-shift system on the gear selector (including wire and
potentiometer) may be added.
Other modifications to gearbox or selector mechanism
If you read the top of my last post the TT is being run to MCRCB rules not FIM. Which for superstock do not allow quickshifters unless fitted to the homologation bike.
RE: stupid rules - smokey125 - 03-06-2008
veefour Wrote:smokey125 Wrote:At the end of the day in may ways some of these things are no different to what Bob Heath used to do at the classic manx or Brian Read when he changed tanks in the pits during the Junior TT, not illegal just bending the rules to the limits. I could list many other occasions like this.I seem to remember going back quite a few years a rider (i can't remember who) punching his tank toward the finish to reduce the volume so it could'nt be deemed as oversize !!
I believe that was Mick Grant on a Honda. The story goes he punched the tank in "celebration after crossing the line" a most un Yorkshire thing to do.
RE: stupid rules - cargo - 03-06-2008
Absolutly nothing wrong with prototypes
Under current rules bike like the Britton or the Rotary Nortons, Voxans are all excluded admitedly they might get in the Senior if the rider is of a calibre but it's unlikely.
And why are prototypes excluded? because the big four don't want them beating their lovely mass produced bikes.
Even dear old George Shuttleworth and his Snap would be turned away now...........................
Some rules for the Junior
600cc fours and 750cc twins & max of 6 gears
And rules for the TT Superbike and Senior
1000cc fours and 1200cc twins & max of six gears
As for Superstock..................
Pick your manufacturer and pay the TT organisers the cost of that bike from a showroom. Plus cost of decent suspension
Start of practise your bike will be waiting for you with a sealed engine and some suspension goodies to fit............
If you break the seal you are out.
If you need a new engine one can be supplied at cost from the manufacturer as would be supplied to a normal showroom customer.
Easy really..............discuss
RE: stupid rules - cargo - 03-06-2008
Just so we know what exactly we are talking about here is what the TT regs say...................
d) Machines
All motorcycles must comply with Appendix B of the ACU National Sporting Code Group A1 for solos and Group B2 for sidecars and with these TT Supplementary Regulations. The onus of ensuring the eligibility of any machine rests solely with the competitor. All Superbike, Superstock and Supersport machines must be on the 2008 FIM list of homologated motorcycles.
- TT Superbike Race
For machines complying with 2008 FIM World Superbike regulations and/or 2008 MCRCB Superbike regulations with the amendments specified in Appendix A of these TT regulations.
Over 750cc up to 1000cc 4 cylinders 4 stroke
Over 750cc up to 1000cc 3 cylinders 4 stroke
Over 800cc up to 1000cc 2 cylinders 4 stroke
- Sidecar TT Races
For machines complying with Formula Two Sidecar regulations as specified in Appendix B of these TT regulations.
- TT Superstock Race
For machines complying with 2008 MCRCB Superstock regulations with the amendments specified in Appendix D of these TT regulations.
Over 600cc up to 1000cc 4 cylinders 4 stroke
Over 750cc up to 1000cc 3 cylinders 4 stroke
Over 850cc up to 1200cc 2 cylinders 4 stroke
- Supersport Junior TT Races
For machines complying with 2008 MCRCB Supersport regulations with the amendments specified in Appendix C of these TT regulations.
Over 400cc up to 600cc 4 cylinders 4 stroke
Over 600cc up to 675cc 3 cylinders 4 stroke
Over 600cc up to 750cc 2 cylinders 4 stroke
- Senior TT Race
For machines complying with the following specifications:
• TT Superbike
• TT Superstock (without limitation of tyre choice)
• Other machines admitted at the discretion of the Organisers
RE: stupid rules - The Bag - 03-06-2008
OK, I'm no rocket scientist when it comes to the 4 stroke engine, or 2 stroke come to mention it. But why can it not be kept simple like Cargo mentioned at the start of this thread.
If its a 600cc race then run a 600cc bike, make whatever mods you like to it, thats where technology then filters down to the rest of us and also eventually road bikes. If its a 1000cc race then run a 1000cc bike again do what the hell you want to it just as long as it comes within the cc limit.
As all motorcycle racing is about, bikes, riders and the team behind them, it gives those who are rocket scientists a damn good chance to try out their inventions or theories. That way the TEAM with the best over all package on the day wins?
I know some will say that teams with bigger budgets will win, but don't they anyway? and also as we saw on Saturday some of these higher tuned machines are quick for 150+ miles but not for 226?
Just a thought
Russ
RE: stupid rules - DCLUCIE - 03-06-2008
FC Wrote:DCLUCIE Wrote:Just a quick question... is there anything in the supplementary regs?
Could not find any, so whats your opinion is the bike legal or not.
But the FIM rules state that external fitted quickshifters can be used on superstock machines
If you want my honest opinion, I think think this is a mistake by the tuner and the bike is illegal to the regulations. It is such a shame nothing was checked before it was was put in the bike. I do know that after they found out that the cam was illegal they asked the scrutineers to check the others and they were all ok. Just a shame the lads who do the bikes picked up a set that were illegal. I feel so so sorry for the team as I believe that this wouldn't have made a difference to the result. But rules are rules, and YES I do believe that they need clarifying so that everyone knows where they stand. Maybe a spec sheet for every race next year would be an idea.
RE: stupid rules - steve-e - 03-06-2008
smokey125 Wrote:Not sure where you read the shock bit steve from MCRCB sstock regs; Rear suspension unit (shock absorber) may be modified or replaced
Sorry, I posted Socks not shocks. I was just amazed (being a sidecar bod) how many rules and restrictions there were in there, and I thought we had a lot!
Very interesting reading from everyone, thank you!
RE: stupid rules - cregnybaa - 03-06-2008
DCLUCIE Wrote:FC Wrote:DCLUCIE Wrote:Just a quick question... is there anything in the supplementary regs?
Could not find any, so whats your opinion is the bike legal or not.
But the FIM rules state that external fitted quickshifters can be used on superstock machines
If you want my honest opinion, I think think this is a mistake by the tuner and the bike is illegal to the regulations. It is such a shame nothing was checked before it was was put in the bike. I do know that after they found out that the cam was illegal they asked the scrutineers to check the others and they were all ok. Just a shame the lads who do the bikes picked up a set that were illegal. I feel so so sorry for the team as I believe that this wouldn't have made a difference to the result. But rules are rules, and YES I do believe that they need clarifying so that everyone knows where they stand. Maybe a spec sheet for every race next year would be an idea.
First of all i think bruce should not of had his win taken away from him as the differance in that cam would have made little or no advantage. the real person who is at fault as you say is the engine builder you dont just pick up a pair of cams and put them in, they are degreed in and checked and then checked again so the engine builder would most likley have known as he obviousley isn't the villiage idiot with the way the bike performed.
RE: stupid rules - FC - 03-06-2008
DCLUCIE Wrote:FC Wrote:DCLUCIE Wrote:Just a quick question... is there anything in the supplementary regs?
Could not find any, so whats your opinion is the bike legal or not.
But the FIM rules state that external fitted quickshifters can be used on superstock machines
If you want my honest opinion, I think think this is a mistake by the tuner and the bike is illegal to the regulations. It is such a shame nothing was checked before it was was put in the bike. I do know that after they found out that the cam was illegal they asked the scrutineers to check the others and they were all ok. Just a shame the lads who do the bikes picked up a set that were illegal. I feel so so sorry for the team as I believe that this wouldn't have made a difference to the result. But rules are rules, and YES I do believe that they need clarifying so that everyone knows where they stand. Maybe a spec sheet for every race next year would be an idea.
I was on about Steve Platers Bike is it or not legal under the rules, they have admitted its an 07 engine in an 08 frame, two totally differnt bikes
RE: stupid rules - kmckay - 03-06-2008
Just a quick 2 cents worth; quickshifters certainly can have a disable switch cos mine does.
And I don't think any Superstock guys were using them, the difference in the sound of a
quick shift gearchange and a "dip the throttle" sort of clutchless change is quite noticable.
RE: stupid rules - FC - 03-06-2008
smokey125 Wrote:FC Wrote:the 2008 Yamaha is a totally new bike and has been homologated and listed within the FIM regs, as it says here>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I can't see the link but if that is truly the case then Platers bike wasn't legal.
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/produc...ation.aspx
Completlt differnt from the 07 bike
FC Wrote:Harvey T Wrote:Harvey T Wrote:
This is how the bull $ factor comes into the event. If they’re not allowed quick shifters then why have they got them in the first place. They should be taken off the machine, end of story, no grey area, simple, clear. Anyone with one fitted, disabled or not, is not allowed to go out. How easy is that.
From the FIM regs on Super stock machines
2.7.6.31 Transmission/Gearbox
An external quick-shift system on the gear selector (including wire and
potentiometer) may be added.
Other modifications to gearbox or selector mechanism
If you read the top of my last post the TT is being run to MCRCB rules not FIM. Which for superstock do not allow quickshifters unless fitted to the homologation bike.
click on link here>>>>> http://www.yamaha-motor-europe.com/products/motorcycles/supersport/yzfr6.jsp
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/products/modelhome/8/0/home.aspx
this site give the specs of the 07 and 08 models