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+--- Thread: Inquest today? (/showthread.php?tid=6294)
RE: Inquest today? - Tom Loughridge - 21-03-2008
I would agree Mike and I think the moderators should receive credit for allowing a balanced and sensible none controversial but constructive discussion based on the information from the press..
It has not gone unoticed and I find it strange that it would initially appear that there are no discussions on this subject on othe road racing forums.
I remain firmly convince that the gateway to competing in the TT is competing in the MGP first.
RE: Inquest today? - Braddan_Bridge - 21-03-2008
"Mr Moyle said he regretted that he was far from impressed with a considerable number of witnesses who gave evidence to the inquest, accusing them of being 'defensive', 'passing the parcel of blame onto others' and failing to accept facts that were 'blindingly obvious'.
He said if the prohibited area at the 26th Milestone had been properly marshalled and properly closed off spectators would not have been in that area and 'their lives would have been spared'.
He said he had no powers to ban race officials and marshals but he said he hoped they would 'do the decent and honourable thing' and not play any significant future role in the Manx Motorcycle Club or marshalling. Among those Mr Moyle was referring to were chief marshal Roger Hurst and former clerk of the course Neil Hanson."
The above is taken from the online edition of iomtoday.co.uk which is the online news paper for the Isle of Man.
I am a former resident and long time supporter if the TT and I have marshalled at the event. I can never remember this part of the course being resticted. Indeed on the wednesday of race week i passed through this section of the course pre race and could see spectators stood in the area in question and NO prohibitive signs. It looks like the marshals in this area are being unfairly blamed for not policing the area. I know this might be considered controversial but IF this was a resticted area and signed as such, the final responsibility of being there lies with the spectators themselves. Without police back up the marshalls authority is extremely limited, yes they can warn a spectator that a place is dangerous and ask them to move on, BUT how far can they go in actually removing them? IF they try a physical approach they lay themselves open to accusations of assault. It was an unfortunate racing accident and tragic for all involved, and sympathies for anyone that was affected by this accident, the riders and spectators families, the marshalls that were there and other spectators that witnessed this incident. BLAME? no blame can be fairly apportioned to anyone for this tragic accident. Hopefully some lessons will be learnt and changes made the main one to reverse the ridiculous decision to have the course "policed" by the marshalls and a handfull of local constabulary.
RE: Inquest today? - thewitch - 21-03-2008
Thank you all for your sensible and sensitive reactions to what has been a difficult verdict in many ways.
I, too, hope it has helped those involved, in whatever way, to see a clear way forward.
I do not think it is a time for blame, and, personally, I am sorry there have been names named. We have all made mistakes and few of us have the burden of thinking we have caused harm to others through that.
It might have been preferable if the report had been housed in the kind of terms used in Macca's divorce (the husband, the wife etc).
What's done is done, let's move on, supporting those who need it.
Let's also hope the 2008 races benefit from the lessons learned so hard, and that people listen more carefully to marshals, and buy their souvenirs in the shops rather than steal them from the roadside.
RE: Inquest today? - Arthur Lawn - 22-03-2008
Coming from Norfolk it disappoints me the coverage this tragic event was given in our local press and on our local Anglia T V news when reporting the inquest result, particularly the interview they conducted.
As usual the media hyped it up to the detriment of the TT and made it look as if the organisers were uncaring people and the event was a shambles.
I agree with Toms post having myself been involved in a fatility on the course. When machines and debris start flying about your in the lap of the gods anywhere on the course thats a risk you take whether rider or spectator,and I don't think this incident was any different.
Those of us old enough on here will remember the Le Mans 24hr when spectators were killed and injured sitting in a grandstand on the start /finish strait
RE: Inquest today? - thewitch - 22-03-2008
What happened here was that, although all the necessary actions had been identified, they were not all put into place. The worst bit for me is that someone, somewhere HAD recognised the possibility of an indident there, and then the map was "lost", and the signs appear never to have been put up.
Had they been the incident would have ended with the unfortunate death of the rider.
If everyone does what they have been told needs to be done, then the TT should run smoothly. Sometimes we all cut corners, thinking it's only a little thing, it doesn't matter, but the consequences can be hugely out of proportion to the oversight. The devil is always in the detail.
Haven't we all lamented the loss of viewpoints (I've sat there for 20 years and nothing has ever happened) well, this is a warning to us all. Maybe the missing word is YET.
As most of the things which came out at the inquest had already been identified by the organising committee, I am sure they have devised ways of making sure everyone is vigilant and conscientious now.
Our role is to obey the signs, and if we see something that gives us concern us, bring it to the attention of a marshal or an official. We ALL need to be aware of safety, if the TT we love is to go on.
RE: Inquest today? - thewitch - 22-03-2008
My apologies to MV... I have inadvertently deleted your posting. There was nothing wrong with it, and I meant to delete something else!
Silly
RE: Inquest today? - Jan Grainger - 22-03-2008
thewitch Wrote:Our role is to obey the signs, and if we see something that gives us concern us, bring it to the attention of a marshal or an official. We ALL need to be aware of safety, if the TT we love is to go on.
I agree. We all have a 'duty of care', no matter what motorcycle meeting we are attending.
RE: Inquest today? - haydw - 23-03-2008
I have been a marshal for a number of years at Black Dub and seen my fair share of accidents- including fatalaties. Apart from the fatality a few years ago, the worst accident I had ever seen was last year that stopped the final practice session on the friday, so I know what I am talking about when I have seen serious incidents. I also marshal back home extensively.
I know every marshal unfortunate enough to be at the 26th on the day would have done their job to the best of their ability, and had signs been there or not, would have known whether the area was safe or not for spectators.
What I find very difficult to swallow, and what puts me off marshalling the most is the apparent 'passing the buck' when it comes to ensuring whether the area was safe or not. If it was a prohibited area there is no excuse for someone a) not to know as such and b) for signs not being there. I am not apportioning blame on anyone as it is totally unclear who has overall responsibility for ensuring that the course is constructed, but if the people at the top dont know whats going on, how are we mortals meant to know any better??
For various reasons I am not going to the TT this year, but if I was I would seriously consider whether to be a marshal or not. When we do our marshal training there is a manual given out with all the details of how to deal with an incident, radio use, where all the helicopter fields are etc. I certainly would have thought that prohibited areas should be a matter of public record and open for everyone to see in the manual, so there is an easy reference guide to see where they are for marshals that just turn up at a sector for the day. During practice weeks marshal numbers are very low, and there is a minimum manning level. I suggest this should be in the manual also. I cannot comment about other sectors, but my personal opinion is that where I am it is too low. It is only going to take an accident to happen where the minimum number of marshals are on post but for something to go wrong to create another situation like this. I for one do not want to be a part of it. You cannot run an event like this with threadbare marshal cover. In my mind, confidence in the whole organisation structure needs to be built up before I can consider marshalling again.
RE: Inquest today? - MV - 23-03-2008
Thank you haydw
This has to be one of THE most telling contributions to this thread.
I sincerely hope that the "people at the top" referred to by haydw are taking on board such opinions.
I for one fear for the future of the TT if these kind of comments are not taken on board and acted upon.
Its stating the obvious, but if the numbers of willing souls to do this critical job drops too far, especially
during pacice, then there will be no event
RE: Inquest today? - MV - 23-03-2008
thewitch Wrote:My apologies to MV... I have inadvertently deleted your posting. There was nothing wrong with it, and I meant to delete something else!
Silly
Doh!
Not to worry Helen, easily done I am sure.
If it wasnt for my senior moments, I would repeat the posting!
RE: Inquest today? - Harvey T - 23-03-2008
A few years ago, the year DJ was sadly lost, there were several posts on another web site about undermaning at several areas and that was from marshals themselves.
After that time I spoke to the head honcho for marshals here in Scotland and I asked him if anyone ever approached him about the TT and he said no, which I found surprising……then maybe not. I don’t know how many, if any, were prepared to go to the TT, but it’s an avenue that in my opinion should be explored.
Anyway, I sent this information the IOM authorities and got a reply. Guess what, the guy was never contacted.
I know I’m changing the subject a little here but it makes me wonder. Maybe, just maybe, the powers that be should be chasing experienced marshals rather than inexperienced riders.
RE: Inquest today? - Rocket Man - 23-03-2008
It was very sad about the DJ incident.
But if my facts are correct, i believe there was nothing more that the marshals could have done with the time factor between the engine blowing on a bike and dumping oil on the track and DJ arriving on the scene on one of the fastest parts of the circuit, which i believe was seconds rather than minutes.
That was just a terrible racing accident, which the marshals could not do anything about. By the time they got the flags out, which would have been a few seconds, David was arriving on the scene.
Remember during the 1980s, when a horse got scared by the air ambulance, landing in a field near Sulby Bridge, to pick up an injured rider.
The horse got out onto the track on the approach to Sulby Bridge, and before the marshals had time to react, which again was seconds, a rider arrived on the scene, collided with the horse killing himself and the horse.
In my opinion, these are freak, and very rare accidents.
Possibly with just whats gone on with the recent inquest, volunteers could become very afraid and reluctant to be marshals, and not taking on this responsibility, unless they are fully protected legally, and as we all know, if there is no marshals, then there is no racing.
RE: Inquest today? - thewitch - 23-03-2008
No matter how many marshals there are, no matter how many prohibited areas there are, no matter how careful everone is, racing will always carry a risk. We just have to try to minimise it where that is possible. Accidents will always happen, when and where we least expect them. Odd things will conspire to make it happen.
What we must do now is make sure that marshals are are fully trained, fully briefed, fully supported and assured, (as is the case) that they will not be penalised or blamed for anything outwith their control.
The marshals at the 26th, who were not injured, were fantastic, coping with so much happening, and their own friends among the injured. The very least Mr Moyle should have done was thank them and praise them.
Gone are the days of the marshals with cameras, or the idea that it's a good way of getting a good spot to watch... most of the time you are so busy keeping watch and checking things, you can hardly follow the race, but the payoff is in knowing that the stars appreciate you and you have done a good job. Most marshals love it and wouldn't want to be spectators.
I will continue to marshal (even if I have been moved to a different place and duties) and would be happy to serve with any of the teams around the course. Marshals are the unsung heroes, the unpaid professionals of the TT, and without them there would be no races.
RE: Inquest today? - cargo - 23-03-2008
I have nothing but praise for those who marshall on the TT course it is without doubt the toughest motorsport marshalling job anywhere in the world.
I marshall myself and have been lucky enough never to have faced a serious incident.........I've no idea how I would cope but lots of other have and do............I'm proud of every single one of them.
Continued improvments in marshalls training and great awareness of the dangers facing both marshalls and spectators is to be welcomed.
I certainly hope to see an inprovment in the actions of spectators with regard to ther own safety..............
I do have on real concern in this era of increasing professionalism within the management of the TT and the competitors and the huge profits made £50 million (I think I read somewhere) is it not time to have professional marshalls. Paid for the work they do and therefore more accountable.
Discuss
I also notice that TTwebsite seems to be the only racing forum where this subject is being discussed at length. There are certain sites where the inquest outcome remains completely unreported and more interestingly ignored on the forums?
The folks on here have so far managed to maintain a sensisble and reasoned debate..................well done guys and gals.
RE: Inquest today? - thewitch - 23-03-2008
What Cargo and I know (and we are now willing to share this secret with you)
is......................
Being a marshal......................
is.....................
99.999% of the time...
GREAT FUN.
Unless there is an incident, and, contrary to all you read in the Daily Mail, or see on Granada, that is very, very rare, (and awful when it does happen)........... we bond into very happy, humorous teams (viz The Gorselea marshals) and have a LOT of fun together.
Friendships are formed which, founded in the white heat of racing, last long after the last straggler has gone home.
You learn essential skills of first aid, organisation, getting on with people you may have little else in common with, and you learn to deal with the suicidal public with humour.
I'll tell again of the little incident at Bray last year.
On the Tromode Road side, there was a rather large "gentleman" sitting on the wall in direct line of fire if our scariest rider (name concealed, but if you offer enough to the Joey Dunlop Foundation I'll tell you) were to lose it on the way down.
I called to him several times to move, but he pretended deafness, looking away all the while.
Four large guys from somewhere pretty scary asked me if I wanted him to move his legs, and I said "Yes, but he's ignoring me". Without rehearsal, and in perfect harmony, they yelled "Hey YOU... Yes YOU, the FAT B*****d... get your legs off the wall"... and he did...
The crowd can be your best friends if you treat them right.
BE A MARSHAL... you will never regret it, you will meet wonderful people... get in touch NOW http://www.iomttma.com... to find your nearest training session. See you at the TT.
RE: Inquest today? - shipleymanx - 23-03-2008
Hi Cargo good idea to have paid marshalls but what about the manx, don't think the government would pay for them for the manx
RE: Inquest today? - cargo - 23-03-2008
I agree it wouldn't be easy finding the money for them at the Manx
but if it could be done it might help with numbers ?
But then you have to consider if your getting people because they are motovated to just be there for the money or for the joy/experience
I still think it's worth looking at
Maybe even just have paid sector and deputy sector marshals ?
It's clear there could be problems and so everything is worth considering
Discuss furthur....................
As for myself at the Manx I'll be doing my bit on newcomers race day unless of course I'm pitting for someone.
RE: Inquest today? - samwise - 23-03-2008
thewitch Wrote:What Cargo and I know (and we are now willing to share this secret with you)
is......................
Being a marshal......................
is.....................
99.999% of the time...
GREAT FUN.
Unless you're stuck up on the Mountain in the mist and rain, or until gone eleven pm in practice week dealing with an oil spill...
RE: Inquest today? - DCLUCIE - 24-03-2008
Just a couple of things I think we should point out and all take a note of.
The 50 million pound thing is not really a justifiable figure. This was probably the amount of money spent or turn over and not a direct profit. You can take a huge amount of cash off that for the running and the management of the TT but thats a different subject. If you were to pay marshals then they would have to inherit risk and also be accountable as they would be deemed to be supplying a service so therefore liable. Would you for a couple of hundred quid? and even if was that amount for example it would add to the costs of runing the TT and also then there is a dammed good possibility this would be passed onto the riders as an entry fee increase. The TT would die if this happened. The insurance for running the TT this year alone is probably going to increase three or four fold, in the past the vast majority of this was paid by the MMCC to try to keep the costs down for the riders. The pro's wouldn't care because they would have entrants, but it would be the smaller competitors who would suffer. Sorry for using the terms smaller rider, as I know a few of them are rather on the large side.....
No matter what we think everyone should have done or what they actually did, this doesn't really matter a jot unless we learn lessons from what has happened.
For a start if they are going to make changes this year there should documentation outlining prohibited areas at every marshaling post. I believe that this documentation is already available, but is way out of date. This needs to be addressed even if its for the peace of mind of the marshals. Whether there was or not, there should have been. On this, I believe that the road closing order actually showed a prohibited area on the right hand side of the course. If this was wrong it nullifies the road closing order and the event should never have taken place. But this should also be addressed. I think we all know what should be done and what a great job the marshals do. Its just down to the organisers to do their part..... but will this happen now so close to the event?
Those are just a few things that should be done by the organisers. What should be done by each and everyone of us is judging the safety of where we sit. Ever since I started watching racing I have always been told to consider where a bike would go if it came off. Even if it was the remotest chance of it sliding down the road or up a hedge don't sit there. But as everyone knows the best places to watch are always the riskiest.
What we need to keep an eye on is lessons learned and things to be put in place. Forget who did what, and when, just make sure that there is something in place to reduce the risk of it happening again.
For the people unfortunately tied up in all this, you have the backing of nearly everyone out there that cares or matters. You have our full support and also our fullest appreciation of what you have done.
Take care everyone and all the best for this years racing.
RE: Inquest today? - Shaun Harris - 24-03-2008
One comment only
THANKYOU TO ALL MARSHALLS FOR THE WORK YOU DO