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RE: TT 2015 Starting Order - Steady the Edward - 26-12-2014
Get a copy of the start numbers the program seeding numbers and finishing positions and work it out for yourselves , and just stick to the numerical information before you and tell me how those numbers stack up in to what should be and how it would be in the old world and tell me the old was better than the new from a fairness level playing field for all and the yes I say it again SAFEST way of doing it
never mind lets wind Eddy up Eddy's full of Sh-- do the numbers work it out , every one that knows me knows I am not a man that is frightened to say that the powers that pee have got things wrong , but this time they have it all most right in my opinion just make the top 20 the same as everyone else
and at the end of the day its not me you need to convince its the powers that pee , I have no influence to the men that make up the rules as they go along , they take no notice of me or it would be a totally different ball game, there would be no top 20 seedings , everyone on qualy positions no electric rubbish , the track time would be streamlined get rid of wasted time , the Manx would be the Manx the world thing I just don't see without selling off the crown jewels if there is some meat in it I will make judgment on it when they give out some more info but to sell off the events to an outside sports specialist would not look to me as a good move and last but not least there would be NO Subarus , and marshals would be all expenses paid officials
RE: TT 2015 Starting Order - Geekay - 29-12-2014
Eddie, you are entitled to your opinion and it's clear you hold it strongly. However, I have one request: please don't assume, second guess or otherwise infer that you know what a competitor goes through or thinks. You do not understand the type of pressure that comes with the TT. I have been fortunate enough to start in 44 TT races and have experienced the pressures that go with it.
Being encouraged to 'qualify' in as high a position as possible is not safe. Practice should be just that; practice. Everybody is different; some like to practice at race speed, flat out everywhere. Others prefer to get the feel of the bike and speed up gradually. Others are consistently slower than their race pace (for a number of reasons).
Come raceday, we go as quick as we can. That's because it's a race !! It is for this reason that speed differentials are actually greater in the race under the new system.
Practice is NOT a race !
The old system was better than the current system for both spectators and competitors alike. The old system seeded competitors on known ability obtained from RACE results, not practice times.
I am not aware of any competitors who favour the new system. I know that many spectators are unable to follow the progress of riders under the new system and they tell me this detracts from their enjoyment of, and engagement with, the races they are watching. Some have even gone as far as to say they will not return to watch under the new system.
Alienating the spectators is NOT the way forward !!
Pressurising competitors is NOT the way forward !!
RE: TT 2015 Starting Order - c iom tt - 29-12-2014
Well said!
RE: TT 2015 Starting Order - spannerman - 29-12-2014
Good post Geekay, with you all the way on this but the only way they will change back to the old system is when its to late, when there are serious accidents during practice caused by riders having to stick there necks on the line, wake up DED in the interest of safety.
RE: TT 2015 Starting Order - Steady the Edward - 29-12-2014
I am sorry Geeky but did you not have to qualify under the old system ??
RE: TT 2015 Starting Order - spannerman - 29-12-2014
(29-12-2014, 11:21 PM)Steady the Edward Wrote: I am sorry Geeky but did you not have to qualify under the old system ??
Yes you did Eddy but not for your start position it was for a number of laps done and attain a speed set by the ACU as per class
To start a race, a newcomer to the TT Circuit, qualifying for the first time must complete a total of at least 6 laps on a solo machine or 4 laps on a sidecar machine. This applies to sidecar passengers as well as drivers. Newcomers must have signed on, attended a briefing and a newcomers course tour on Saturday 26th May, and commenced qualifying including completion of a speed controlled lap by the end of Tuesday’s qualifying session and should have completed 3 laps by the end of Wednesday’s qualifying session, or they may be disqualified.
All competitors must have signed on and commenced qualifying by the end of Wednesday’s session.
Competitors who have qualified to start in any previous race on the Mountain Circuit (TT or Manx Grand Prix) shall be required to complete a minimum of 5 laps for solos and 3 laps for sidecars, unless the Clerk of the Course grants permission otherwise.
For all Isle of Man TT Race classes a minimum of 2 laps must be completed on each machine entered, one of which must be within the qualifying time. For TT Zero Challenge machines, one qualifying lap on is required.
Any competitor who does not attain the required number of laps or qualification time may not be permitted into the race.
All qualifying, including those on race days will be officially timed and count towards qualification.
RE: TT 2015 Starting Order - Splashdown - 30-12-2014
Excellent post by Geekay. I agreed with every word.
Eddy, we DID have to qualify under the old system, but we were given a time that we had to qualify inside. Even that was not always easy: an odd break down, bad weather, practice cancelled, a red flag situation, baulking, etc. Ironically, that USED to happen, and qualifying was not always a piece of cake.
But guess what? Those situations still arise, and the riders are meant to be trying to qualify as high up the order as they can.
It's bloody crazy Eddy, and there's no need for it.
Would it have been safer that year I qualified 23rd, and then finished 2nd? How many riders would I have been forcing myself past? OK I accept that I would have been guaranteed a top 20 position, but the same situation is probably happening every year to other riders down the list.
And we haven't even discussed whether the viewing public have a clue what's going on. I for one won't be watching a race with the current system. I like to watch the back markers coming through, maybe they're future stars, achieving the nearly impossible on inferior machinery. There's so much going on down the order, and that is all lost, in a pathetic attempt to improve safety. But wait a minute. Doesn't racing involve overtaking? Aren't the leading riders going to catch the back markers? Of course! THAT'S the sport we love. Top riders are perfectly capable of overtaking safely, even though it's possible time will be lost. Other riders will possibly lose time too, but the race is almost 2hours long. In car racing, exactly the same situations arise, even with the blue flag. You can win an odd manoeuvre, you can lose an odd manoeuvre. C'est la vie.
So, to summarise, something I've spoken of before, there is no need to have practice week as a secondary race week. There is enough pressure on the riders as it is without this unnecessary burden. If we returned to the old system, riders can get on with sorting themselves out with less worry, and the public (without whom there would be no racing), can enjoy the racing after buying a programme that would be worth the money!
RE: TT 2015 Starting Order - c iom tt - 30-12-2014
I can not understand why what Splashdown and Geekay says is so difficult to understand and makes perfect sense.
RE: TT 2015 Starting Order - Steady the Edward - 30-12-2014
Look people say the HAVE to qualify as high up the order as they can, ?? That is only driven by their own ambition knowing that they will have a easier ride if among riders of similar abilitys and don't have slow riders holding them up, funny but wasn't that the aim of and the achievement of this the new system,
.
RE: TT 2015 Starting Order - Dougboy - 30-12-2014
Commenting only as a spectator and marshall, the new system is a disaster. I know the old system wasn't a perfect illustrator of capability and progress, but it was at least a fairly simplistic signal of who was making ground as the races progressed - and as such, interest was maintained (for those who were interested) in the whole field. All of which has been said many times before.
My point is that 'on the dark side' it was reported that the organizers were happy with the new system and had recieved no negative feedback from riders and spectators since its adoption.
We know for certain that they weren't listening to the 'vocal minority' at the old site and they sure as hell ain't listening to us on here. So if you feel strongly enough about it, it might be worth registering you're dissatisfaction via an official or direct route.
RE: TT 2015 Starting Order - Kursaal Flyer - 30-12-2014
Malcolm. I feel a poll coming along here , if its easy enough to put together vote either old system or new then send the results to the DED.
RE: TT 2015 Starting Order - Steady the Edward - 30-12-2014
Doug Your words not mine ( 'vocal minority') I am afraid that that is just how you are seen , and to have the impact you wish for its not a case of getting at me it is a case of making yourselves vocal to the ACU/ DED
Nick I have respect for you , you know I have But lets take your words
Would it have been safer that year I qualified 23rd, and then finished 2nd? How many riders would I have been forcing myself past? OK I accept that I would have been guaranteed a top 20 position, but the same situation is probably happening every year to other riders down the list.
now then step back you started in your seeded number , and you are saying that that allowed you to achieve a second place , a place you say you would not have been able to had you started under the new system at number 23 well for me and I know you will not like this under me that would be tough , labeled under the hard knocks of racing , no such thing as a free meal ,
put the boot on the other foot what would you have said to the other riders you would have been holding up and stopped from getting a podium because you still had your problems , come on fair play for all level playing field for every one , cake and eat it ??
.
RE: TT 2015 Starting Order - spannerman - 30-12-2014
(30-12-2014, 01:26 PM)Kursaal Flyer Wrote: Malcolm. I feel a poll coming along here , if its easy enough to put together vote either old system or new then send the results to the DED.Plus 1 good post however the poll should be taken only as an interest to most of us armchair riders, I don't think the poll should be sent to DED , as it is a couple of years now since DED asked the riders, I think now that the new system has been used DED should re ask them again "now" about which system they prefer'
RE: TT 2015 Starting Order - Dougboy - 30-12-2014
(30-12-2014, 01:55 PM)Steady the Edward Wrote: Doug Your words not mine ( 'vocal minority') I am afraid that that is just how you are seen , and to have the impact you wish for its not a case of getting at me it is a case of making yourselves vocal to the ACU/ DEDHi Eddie
Nick I have respect for you , you know I have But lets take your words
Would it have been safer that year I qualified 23rd, and then finished 2nd? How many riders would I have been forcing myself past? OK I accept that I would have been guaranteed a top 20 position, but the same situation is probably happening every year to other riders down the list.
now then step back you started in your seeded number , and you are saying that that allowed you to achieve a second place , a place you say you would not have been able to had you started under the new system at number 23 well for me and I know you will not like this under me that would be tough , labeled under the hard knocks of racing , no such thing as a free meal ,
put the boot on the other foot what would you have said to the other riders you would have been holding up and stopped from getting a podium because you still had your problems , come on fair play for all level playing field for every one , cake and eat it ??
.
It's very obvious that your views are strongly and sincerely held and I absolutely respect them - I just don't agree with them. So I'm not having a go at you at all.
I'm just making the point, as you acknowledge, that discussing it on here isn't going to change it.
RE: TT 2015 Starting Order - Nev14 - 30-12-2014
As Marshall I have to say that when called upon to use the black flag it is a lot easier to pick up a bike when you have some idea where in the field the bike might be coming.Under the new system unless you have logged all the changes in your programme you are never sure when they are due to arrive at your pull in point. I know ideally you should get a call from the previous two or three marshal points but experience shows this by no means always happens.When approaching you at up to 180mph you have little time to spot the rider.Black flagging is an important safety issue, ask Guy Martin when he was black flagged at Ramsey.
RE: TT 2015 Starting Order - Steady the Edward - 30-12-2014
As long time supporters and followers of the TT I think many are wearing blinkers to the ever growing changes that must be made to keep us up to date with we must move with the times and adapt and be seen to be doing every thing we possibly can to make the running of it as safe as we can, if we are ever seen to be neglect full in that endeavour we will wave goodbye to what we all love forever, and personaly I worry about that enough in the hands of some of our beloved leaders
RE: TT 2015 Starting Order - Splashdown - 30-12-2014
Eddy, I didn't word my comment re my 2nd place very well. I meant that I would have been guaranteed my STARTING number (No 7 in those days). Thus the qualifying wouldn't have mattered under the present system (nor under the old system), because I was a top twenty rider. (Spannerman would probably disagree!!)
In that year, I had arrived from the NW200 after a huge accident, in a poor state, was quite unwell during practice week, and did my best just to get my eye back in. I admit I was surprised that I rode well enough to finish 2nd, but I would have started from No. 7 whatever.
Under the present system, I would have been forced to ride much harder than I would have wanted to, (if I wasn't a top twenty rider, this is my point), and thus pressurised to achieve the highest starting position possible.
Eddy, you've never raced, but why would you expect a rider to do that? Under what conditions can you accept that as being reasonable? I was passed fit enough to ride, but I wasn't in my peak condition at the beginning of practice, but I didn't worry, because there was no pressure on me. I was quoted as saying that I was just using practice to get my eye back in. That is exactly what practice is for. In fact why are the organisers calling it "practice". It should be re-named "Timed Qualifying", because it certainly isn't practice.
I don't think I'm making my point very well, but Eddy, you are not making it any easier by failing to accept anyone else's point of view. JM130 confirmed with me that it would make no difference in a race. He is catching the slowest riders first, and there's going to be plenty of overtaking whichever way.
My only concession would be that the allocated top 20 get priority "practice", or is it "Timed Qualifying"?, slots to go out earlier in the Timed Qualifying sessions. There, that is my one concession, but that's what they've done for years, so no change there.
How the organisers can sell the programme, which is about 50% dearer than the one for the Open Golf Championship (which includes all the past winners by the way), and then send the numbered riders off in a different order is totally beyond me......AND JM130, who told me that watching anyone past the top 20 was a complete waste of time.
RE: TT 2015 Starting Order - Splashdown - 30-12-2014
And I think Nev14's point is extremely valid.
RE: TT 2015 Starting Order - Dougboy - 30-12-2014
(30-12-2014, 03:07 PM)Steady the Edward Wrote: As long time supporters and followers of the TT I think many are wearing blinkers to the ever growing changes that must be made to keep us up to date with we must move with the times and adapt and be seen to be doing every thing we possibly can to make the running of it as safe as we can, if we are ever seen to be neglect full in that endeavour we will wave goodbye to what we all love forever, and personaly I worry about that enough in the hands of some of our beloved leadersIf there was any evidence to support the position that the new system is safer, the objection to it would be seriously undermined.
Crashes involving more than 1 machine / rider are vanishingly rare, and I can't think of any in recent times that involved a faster rider overtaking a lower order rider (though I confess to knowing almost nothing about Karl Harris' accident except that it did involve 2 machines).
RE: TT 2015 Starting Order - Steady the Edward - 30-12-2014
I don't think we should bring the Harris accident in to this , for as understand it that incident is still under investigation , and there fore it would be inappropriate and insensitive of us to discuss it ,
.