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RE: Inquest today? - ali - 24-03-2008
well worded chicken,
we went to quarry bends 5/6 years ago to watch senior race day. got there 6-30 in the morning and we struggled to get a seat so many people who came just for the day straight of the boat and went to their vantage points. hours later the roads shut and a young bobby walked along the sector and pointed out the do's and don'ts and then said to me directly " this is where phil McCallum lost it 10 years ago the scrape marks are still there" I looked over the bale and just infront of me was a 10" scrape in the pavement. There were no warning sign's, I was NOT advised not to sit there, just keep my eye on the bikes heading my way and if they did not look right to move pretty quick,
I sat put at my own risk but everyone that stood behind me I told to stand somewhere else, they were in my way if I had to evacuate quickly. I don't think I would have been able to move that quick anyway.
not been there again.
ali
RE: Inquest today? - thewitch - 24-03-2008
There is a good dicsussion on iomtt.com, titled Leave us alone.
RE: Inquest today? - Tom Loughridge - 24-03-2008
thewitch Wrote:There is a good dicsussion on iomtt.com, titled Leave us alone.
I for one DO NOT and never will believe that Wyn Evans who is one of those people who deals with the berieved in the aftermath of such tragedies did not jump through hoops and do everything in her power that was humanely possible to ease the pain and assist the widow and relatives.
RE: Inquest today? - thewitch - 24-03-2008
I agree entirely Tom. I have tried to avoid commenting, but I recall this was all said at the time, and then retracted by, I think, Marc's mother, on behalf of the family. Less said the better, I think.
Personally, I think Wyn Evans is one of the greatest unsung heroes of our sport and the contributions of Des and Wyn over the years, while always kept quiet, and in many cases completely confidential, can never be overstated. Thank you both from the bottom my heart.
RE: Inquest today? - Stella - 24-03-2008
haydw Wrote:I have been a marshal for a number of years at Black Dub and seen my fair share of accidents- including fatalaties. Apart from the fatality a few years ago, the worst accident I had ever seen was last year that stopped the final practice session on the friday, so I know what I am talking about when I have seen serious incidents. I also marshal back home extensively.
I know every marshal unfortunate enough to be at the 26th on the day would have done their job to the best of their ability, and had signs been there or not, would have known whether the area was safe or not for spectators.
What I find very difficult to swallow, and what puts me off marshalling the most is the apparent 'passing the buck' when it comes to ensuring whether the area was safe or not. If it was a prohibited area there is no excuse for someone a) not to know as such and b) for signs not being there. I am not apportioning blame on anyone as it is totally unclear who has overall responsibility for ensuring that the course is constructed, but if the people at the top dont know whats going on, how are we mortals meant to know any better??
For various reasons I am not going to the TT this year, but if I was I would seriously consider whether to be a marshal or not. When we do our marshal training there is a manual given out with all the details of how to deal with an incident, radio use, where all the helicopter fields are etc. I certainly would have thought that prohibited areas should be a matter of public record and open for everyone to see in the manual, so there is an easy reference guide to see where they are for marshals that just turn up at a sector for the day. During practice weeks marshal numbers are very low, and there is a minimum manning level. I suggest this should be in the manual also. I cannot comment about other sectors, but my personal opinion is that where I am it is too low. It is only going to take an accident to happen where the minimum number of marshals are on post but for something to go wrong to create another situation like this. I for one do not want to be a part of it. You cannot run an event like this with threadbare marshal cover. In my mind, confidence in the whole organisation structure needs to be built up before I can consider marshalling again.
Thankyou for your honest and frank reply, yours was exactly the situation and the main reason i felt so compelled to post an early response to the verdict.
Having been a long time TT fan and knowing the committement that especially marshalling around the TT requires, i sincerely hope your comments are noted and responded too.
Can i also add my appreciation regarding the discussion and surprise, although maybe in hindsite not, that there is not more comments on other roadracing forums. Especially as in the past the forums are always amongst the first used when the need for extra marshals is required.
RE: Inquest today? - PeterCourtney - 24-03-2008
I am just so sad that this crash has shown up that after 100 years of racing, the organisation at the top still make themselves look like the captain of the Titanic.
My (no doubt unpopular) view is that for a wide range of reasons the TT has become untenable, and the top level management having done nothing to restrict the performance of the motorcycles allowed - unlike every other branch of motorsport - or ensured that the course is kept in such a condition that it restricts speeds, and constantly reviewed these things every year along with a comittee drawn from the top 20 finishers across all classes - have got their heads so far in the sand that they will not get them out again.
Moving further and further away from maintaining and celebrating the heritage of the TT will only put another screw or two in its coffin.
Ask yourselves one question: if the Mountain Course was proposed to be created today, for the machines of today, would it get a licence, and thus would the event ever happen?
RE: Inquest today? - David Griffiths - 25-03-2008
I have had the opportunity today of reading the Coroner's report in full. Regardless of whether you agree with Mr Moyle's opinions or not, it is abundently clear that if racing on the TT Course is to have any future at all, then there have to be drastic and sweeping changes in all aspects of the organisation - right now. With only 2 months to go until the start of practice, I am not at all confident that these changes can be put into place in time for the TT to even run this year. The days of serious accidents and fatalities in road racing being blithely dismissed as 'one of those unfortunate things' are well and truly over - and in my opinion not before time.
RE: Inquest today? - John Foster - 25-03-2008
There will always be room for improvement in any human-controlled environment, but where will this constant seeking-to-blame culture end?
Not many years ago we British used to laugh at the "American" obsession with claiming damages. Now we have a booming national job-creation scheme bulging with risk-assessors, health and safety officers and claims department clerks. Their snowball is rolling and will always pick up more jobs for itself.
So where do we go from here?
Should we stop all motor sport as people may get killed or injured?
Should we stop all sport, as people may get killed or injured (Matterhorn deaths = as many as 7 every 2 days. Horse-riding deaths or injuries = more per mile than in any other sporting activity, apart from falling off mountains)?
Should we stop children from playing (gaining practical experience for life) as they may get killed or injured?
My questions may seem extreme, but we are rapidly heading down an extremely dangerous road. If we take away experience of danger we eliminate the appreciation of what is risky..........and what a dull world it is going to be, just before it is over-run by a race of risk-takers.
RE: Inquest today? - thewitch - 25-03-2008
Totally agree, John.
Interestingly, I have been following the new poll on iomtoday, where they ask:
Following coroner Michael Moyle's blistering attack on the organisation of the TT in the light of the deaths of three people during last year's Senior race, does the TT have a viable long term future?
1.Yes - lessons have already been learned and there is a different organisational structure in place.
2.Only if there are many more changes to the way the races are run. 3.No, this verdict will signal the beginning of the end for the TT.
Last time I looked 60% went for 1, 40% for 2, and noone for 3. It's
early days, but we need a statement now from the minister saying what changes have already been made, and which if any issues have still to be addressed.
It's a pity Mr Moyle has not given a dispassionate analysis as his personal opinions, irrelevant though they may be, cloud the issues.
RE: Inquest today? - kmckay - 25-03-2008
The full results of the inquest are available at
http://www2.iomtoday.co.uk/pdfs/TTinquestMarch08Judgment.pdf
RE: Inquest today? - Phil Windrum - 25-03-2008
Thanks for the link. I had actually been in contact with the Coroner's Office before about inquest reports and been told they were never made available to the public!>
RE: Inquest today? - DCLUCIE - 25-03-2008
I know this is coming at it from a totally different angle but what about this? ....
Please don't kill me for this but I am trying to give all angles.
If say for instance we were all talking about something completely different like a train accident. Much like that a few years ago at the train station in the UK. The coroner there made his verdict but also suggested that there was a full enquiry into the accident that went on for ages. Since then Rail Track has invested largely in new track and also new kit to check track condition.
Would this investment have been made had that accident never happened? who knows, all we do know is there has been exstensive track which has been replaced, which has probably, but not definately, prevented a few more accidents.
It wasn't the first time Mr Moyles has done this, but again he isn't the only coroner who has done this over the years, and it isn't restricted to the IOM.
Please don't slate me over this but if the TT needed an overhall is it better now or later? Do we feel that even though we think Mr Moyles comments about individuals was out of order, some real good can come out of his comments for the safety of the riders, marshals and also most importantly the people who come here and spend their hard earned cash. If there has been deficientcies in communication, can his comments open these up? Did it need his comments to realise how bad the situation was? and if not and the problems were already known why was there nothing done before?
I think we all know that the TT was in need of an overhall in some areas, but maybe didn't realise how much, and how far up it went. Or did we?
Sometimes when people are in charge they will accept or think that things are being done by the people they trust to do their jobs. The TT organisers are not alone in this it happens all over the world. Soc Gen for instance in the financial sector with their rogue traders, bet the Chairman had no idea that it was going on until it was too late. I am not condoning what happened, just that sometimes it does.
There has to be trust at the top that everything below them is being done, and yes I understand that it is up to them to make sure that this happened. To tell you the truth, no one person can do that, it needs a team of people, a very large team, and most importantly it needs to be checked and communicated both ways when things are missing or simply just not there. Maybe with all the other things going on it might have been missed, but lets just leave it at that and hope things get sorted.
Its time to realise that change is needed, and change for the good of the TT. Maybe, even though I hate to say it, it took something like this to make that change and difference to make the future TT's a safer place to be? Its only a shame it did actually need something like this to happen before anything is done.
The orgainsers can not make these changes without the dedication of the marshals, they can not do it without the days and months of planning by all of the people who play even a small part in the great and one and only TT. This is the saving grace fo the TT, they have a very dedicated team, very professional marshals and to tell you the truth I think the TT is the safest place to race in the UK. Medics, helicopters safety equipment, officials and most of all the greatest team of people out on the track the many many trained marshals. You won't find any of these else where.
Come on support the TT.
RE: Inquest today? - thewitch - 25-03-2008
Yes, Clucie, you are right. What I object to is his expression of his own opinion on various matters. Had he said "Let us have a full enquiry with external experts and a review of everything"... fine, but several pages of what he said was personal, not professional.
I'd better stay out of trouble, eh?............
RE: Inquest today? - Harvey T - 25-03-2008
Safety is here to stay and we have to adapt or loose out. We can all complain about it, we can all quote mountaineering and such like as I’ve done it myself, but it wont change the situation. As David says, and I agree with him 100%, we just can’t keep saying 'one of those unfortunate things'
We can argue until we’re blue in the face about not blaming anyone or there should be a no blame culture. But in order to move forward, and that’s what we all want to see, we need to know the reasons for such incidents. When you probe into any given situation that results in failure it will always seem as if someone is being blamed.
Oh, I also think we need to re-read the very last part of the report.
RE: Inquest today? - Phil Windrum - 25-03-2008
While some of the body of the report was quite personal I don't think any of his concluding recommendations are unmanagable. Generally, they seem like common sense. He also goes to lengths to point out that his gripe is with the upper hierarchy but not the men/women on the ground which will be reassuring to many.
He uses the metaphor about all this being like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. For some families this is sadly the case, but if the door is closed now then it might stop all the other horses from getting out.
I also go back to my previous point about the importance of communication which did play a major factor. It is of extreme importance that the marshalls around the course feel their views are important and are being heard, and that changes can be implemented on the basis of their recommendations.
The whole process of designating prohibited areas seems very long and drawn out. If a marshall during the TT/MGP feels a spectator is in a dangerous position but not in a prohibited area what can be done? If an incident occurs on first night of practice where a bike goes somewhere that isn't a prohibited area at the time, and the organisers want to make it prohibited, how long woukd this take?
RE: Inquest today? - shipleymanx - 25-03-2008
having read the report i agree changes need to be made, but i also think the coroner seemed to lost the scale of the operation. this is not making excuses. i have watched quite a few programmes on everest and to say that that is the most uncontrolled area of sport would be an understatement. Any body can climb without experience and no back up. And if some body is unlucky enough not to make it they are just left to die. can you imagine that at the TT.Whilst we need change things we are all human and mistakes happen. He said that every body tried to blame some body else, well this is a direct result of the Blame culture we are in, brought on by american layers.
Inquest Results - an observation - ian huntly - 25-03-2008
I have been privy to many inquests over the years I have been involved with the TT, and therefore, as usual, I have printed off the "FRIDAY 8th JUNE 2007" report and read it over and over again looking at it from all possible angles.
I know most of the people involved and I feel sad at the outcome of, and decision on this series of events which clearly contributed to the deaths and injuries last June.
Never have I read such a report intimating complacency, buck passing and lack of care in this case. It seems that so many people who thought that things were OK and didn't need checking are guilty of lack of responsibilty and communication when it was needed, and should now make sure that this does NOT ever happen again.
Obviously, the accident involving Marc hitting posts could have happened anywhere on the course, but the aftermath of this one at the 26th was horrific.
All too often over the years I have heard " Ah, it happens, they were doing what they wanted" and I have got to thinking that myself, pushing death and injury to the back of my mind, hearing the usual comparisons with skiing, mountaineering and other sports that claim lives. This report has been like a blow to the Solar Plexus and we all need to read it and weep.
WE have only a few days to go to TT 2008, have things been put into place to prevent any accidents this year ??
Please God, they have ?
A bit of common sense needed in every quadrant.
And make the Marshals truly aware of what responsibilty is on their shoulders once they have volunteered.
RE: Inquest Results - an observation - Shaun Harris - 25-03-2008
ian huntly Wrote:I have been privy to many inquests over the years I have been involved with the TT, and therefore, as usual, I have printed off the "FRIDAY 8th JUNE 2007" report and read it over and over again looking at it from all possible angles.
I know most of the people involved and I feel sad at the outcome of, and decision on this series of events which clearly contributed to the deaths and injuries last June.
Never have I read such a report intimating complacency, buck passing and lack of care in this case. It seems that so many people who thought that things were OK and didn't need checking are guilty of lack of responsibilty and communication when it was needed, and should now make sure that this does NOT ever happen again.
Obviously, the accident involving Marc hitting posts could have happened anywhere on the course, but the aftermath of this one at the 26th was horrific.
All too often over the years I have heard " Ah, it happens, they were doing what they wanted" and I have got to thinking that myself, pushing death and injury to the back of my mind, hearing the usual comparisons with skiing, mountaineering and other sports that claim lives. This report has been like a blow to the Solar Plexus and we all need to read it and weep.
WE have only a few days to go to TT 2008, have things been put into place to prevent any accidents this year ??
Please God, they have ?
A bit of common sense needed in every quadrant.
And make the Marshals truly aware of what responsibilty is on their shoulders once they have volunteered.
Ian, it is basically your points above, that made me offer my services to the Tourist board, to come over and act as another set of eyes, ie, SAFETY GAURD AS SUCH
Last year in the first practice session I did, I noted bails missing from a certain corner!!!! HOW MANY PLACES ARE LIKE THIS??
They need an ex top line rider, to act as a safety officer for the riders and the crowd- NOT A LOCAL GUY! a rider can see potentuall dissaster points, better than any one else ever=Fact!
I would have jumped at the chance, to come over and try to help make the TT safer, BUT some dept was not interested in my offer
Getting it RIGHT - ian huntly - 25-03-2008
NOW THAT'S AN OFFER THAT CANNOT BE REFUSED. For heavens sake have this man Harris to help this year.
Great idea Shaun.
Even I could contribute, but it seems a closed shop.
RE: Inquest today? - veefour - 25-03-2008
I cannot believe the authorities are not interested in Shaun or Ian's offers of help with their experience & knowledge, why !!!