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+--- Thread: Waved Yellows (/showthread.php?tid=19961)
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Waved Yellows - DaveOldham - 09-06-2015
Can anybody tell me if there is a standard, uniform procedure for action riders must take upon reaching a waved yellow flag on the TT course?
RE: Waved Yellows - bsa499 - 09-06-2015
When I was briefed the instruction was 'Slow Down And Be Prepared To Stop!'
RE: Waved Yellows - DaveOldham - 09-06-2015
I thought so! All I will say is credit to Mr Dunlop today for doing so and raising his arm to warn others
RE: Waved Yellows - Fitz - 09-06-2015
Normally a waved yellow should be preceeded by a stationary yellow. Seeing a stationary yellow the bikes should be slowing up a little at least, upon a waved yellow they should be at a speed where they can stop....ie 30/40mph maybe and should stay at that speed until they pass a green which should come after the waved yellow.
Sadly this does not always happen.
RE: Waved Yellows - larryd - 09-06-2015
Don't forget the "no overtaking" bit!
RE: Waved Yellows - billybookcase - 09-06-2015
(09-06-2015, 10:19 PM)Fitz Wrote: Normally a waved yellow should be preceeded by a stationary yellow. Seeing a stationary yellow the bikes should be slowing up a little at least, upon a waved yellow they should be at a speed where they can stop....ie 30/40mph maybe and should stay at that speed until they pass a green which should come after the waved yellow.
Sadly this does not always happen.
Slowing up a little, from racing speed is still very rapid to most of us.
No way would they slow to 30 or 40 mph.
RE: Waved Yellows - Alfie Noakes - 09-06-2015
Basically don't be surprised if the track is blocked, people/debris in/on the road etc .. what is never seemingly taken into account when a bollocking is dished out to the riders is that 70mph feels like walking speed when you've been rattling along at 150+mph and your brain is working at 2x+ the speed it normally works at.
A question i'd like some info on is the "lack of adhesion" flag meaning - lack of adhesion from what exactly ?? water ?, treated oil spill ? coolant ? the same flag goes out for a rain shower as goes out for cement dust in the road and there's a huge difference in grip
RE: Waved Yellows - eman1948 - 10-06-2015
I was watching the sector times and in one of the sectors Dunlop and a lot of others were much slower than the previous lap apart but some noticeable riders.
RE: Waved Yellows - DaveOldham - 10-06-2015
(10-06-2015, 06:47 AM)eman1948 Wrote: I was watching the sector times and in one of the sectors Dunlop and a lot of others were much slower than the previous lap apart but some noticeable riders.
I think we are getting at the same thing here eman
RE: Waved Yellows - Steady the Edward - 10-06-2015
(09-06-2015, 11:07 PM)Alfie Noakes Wrote: Basically don't be surprised if the track is blocked, people/debris in/on the road etc .. what is never seemingly taken into account when a bollocking is dished out to the riders is that 70mph feels like walking speed when you've been rattling along at 150+mph and your brain is working at 2x+ the speed it normally works at.
A question i'd like some info on is the "lack of adhesion" flag meaning - lack of adhesion from what exactly ?? water ?, treated oil spill ? coolant ? the same flag goes out for a rain shower as goes out for cement dust in the road and there's a huge difference in grip
The interpretation Alfie of the Adhesion flag is basically that the track surface is compromised , so ride to what you can see , we do not have enough flags to give a detailed account of what is causing the compromise and if we were to hold out a board telling them just what the problem is they would not have time to read it ,
To me ! in my way of looking at it , the information we can give a rider with flags is very basic , and the same information that any flag can give boils down to the same thing RIDE TO WHAT YOU CAN SEE !! ROUND THE CORNER THERE IS SOMETHING AMISS we can say no more
we can not give any more detail than that , some are saying they should drop to a given speed under a yellow , but sorry no that is not the case at some incidents riding past at 80mph with caution would be fine , but at others 30 mph would be too much as we wanted them to stop ,
so to riders I say , please respect any flag you come across it may be your chance not to become part of an incident , and it maybe my life you are putting in danger if you ignore them , and you are short enough of marshals as it is
RE: Waved Yellows - Westers - 10-06-2015
When Hutchy did 5 in a year this topic was raised then, especially as he set his fastest lap on the last lap of one race, yet there had been an incident and he had to pass through waved yellows. Or that's what was alleged on the old board by someone, who appeared to be in the know, at the time.
I guess it's the proof thing really - as a rider you think you've slowed enough, but as above, what feels like 30 mph to the rider is probably more like 70mph due to the speeds he's been travelling at previously. So the rider thinks he can stop, but the people on the ground don't think he can - who's side do you take, and more importantly how do make sure this way of treating these incidents is repeatable? Using people's perceptions of what is safe, and isn't safe, is not repeatable from one marshall to the next.
Sector times would show if you've slowed so I guess that's the only way, but again if you as a rider have slowed to what you think/feel is 30 mph (but it's actually 70 or so), how can you say the rider is in the wrong? He did what he thought was correct at the time.
Pit lane limiters to be used in accident zones???? (that's a can of worms I'm not getting into, but I don't agree that's the solution)
RE: Waved Yellows - Kursaal Flyer - 10-06-2015
Pit lane limiters to be used in accident zones???? (that's a can of worms I'm not getting into, but I don't agree that's the solution)
Cant see this as a solution not all bikes are fitted with one.
RE: Waved Yellows - Alfie Noakes - 10-06-2015
Thanks Ed for the info, surely though if they are showing like the other day "Lack of adhesion at 32nd Milestone" at the startline on the big LED board just before the race start they know what the reason is ?. I'm not thinking a notice/info board for marshals to hold i'm thinking it would be quite simple for the organisers to have a defined separate flag for lack of adhesion from rain shower. FYI this isn't me arguing with marshals or the job they do(you/they helped me lots of times back in the day) just looking for info.
RE: Waved Yellows - Steady the Edward - 10-06-2015
In my view there is still no benefit from saying that the compromise of adhesion at the 32nd is this that or the other we still cant go in to detail how wide is it for how far oil water , we just cant give that much info , so we do what we can and say in this or that area take care , the rain flag is a good example of the mix up of the use and interpretation of flags ( something I have said ever since I started marshaling should be uniformed throughout the world at all levels) at BSB we show the rain flag if there is rain in the air and then if the track becomes compromised through water we put the adhesion flag out with it , saying that the track is now compromised by WATER , then if the track becomes compromised by something other than water I E oil - debris- or anything else we remove the rain flag , there for differentiating between water and other contamination problems , that offers as much information as possible , water would tend to be full circuit other problems more localised to smaller areas , but at TT different marshals interpret the meanings in different ways , some only put out the rain flag as the track gets wet , some want it out as the first spot of rain is felt , the use of flags should be uniformed to reduce the ( riders say why bother we passed there last time and they had a flag out and there was nothing there ) and the attitude of some marshals that I HATE WITH A VENGEANCE ( put it out just in case ) there should be NO just in case !! IT IS OR IT ISN'T
and limiters at the scene of an incident is a DEFINITE NO NO , as I said before at one incident 80mph would be fine but at another 30 is too much simple as that
RE: Waved Yellows - Electric_Monk - 10-06-2015
There is a rain flag (white with a red cross) to be shown when there is standing water on the track. Lack of adhesion should not be used for water, but for any other issues, such as oil, melting tarmac, any fluids from a bike. IIRC the rain flag only recently came back, and they are not at all locations, so sometimes Lack of Adhesion has been shown for exceptional water conditions, such as standing water on a white line on a fast corner. Hope this helps.
RE: Waved Yellows - Steady the Edward - 10-06-2015
You are corect , what I was trying to show is the different interpritations of how flags are used , and riders get all confused with the differences , which in my view is plain silly
.
RE: Waved Yellows - Alfie Noakes - 10-06-2015
The LED start line info board today had Lack of Adhesion due to damp patches Mountain Mile - that's a simple way of passing on simple information but it doesn't always happen like that.
RE: Waved Yellows - Electric_Monk - 10-06-2015
(10-06-2015, 06:01 PM)Alfie Noakes Wrote: The LED start line info board today had Lack of Adhesion due to damp patches Mountain Mile - that's a simple way of passing on simple information but it doesn't always happen like that.
Agreed. That works well to explain the situation before the race starts, but conveying information that changes during the race with a limited set of flags, at limited locations is unfortunately much less precise. I'm guessing you don't get a chance to read the LED board on a flying lap?!
RE: Waved Yellows - Alfie Noakes - 10-06-2015
Haha no the LED board is just there at the start. Heavy rain/standing water is easy to see and races are either postponed or red flagged these days if rains heavily, the point i'm trying to put over is that a shiney greasy lightly showered road without the mentioned standing water has much much less grip than a road which has cement dust in places and I can't for the life of me figure out why we couldn't have a separate flag for each situation.
RE: Waved Yellows - eman1948 - 11-06-2015
I think this post has moved away from what Dave the original poster was getting at.