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+--- Thread: TT Newcomers - their finish position in the MGP - hypothetical question (/showthread.php?tid=20156)
TT Newcomers - their finish position in the MGP - hypothetical question - wsn03 - 25-06-2015
With some lightening fast newcomers in the last 2 years, does anyone know if their Supersport lap times might have put them on the top step at the same years MGP? I'm saying Supersport because that is the high end at the MGP (max bike size) for those who don't know. Just interested to know if any of them were fast enough to have emulated that rare feat of winning the MGP on the first attempt.
I don't know the lap times of the Supersport newcomers or the same years winning MGP rider, but if anyone does I'd be interested to know, especially as the MGP seems to be a lot more competitive these days at the sharp end.
RE: TT Newcomers - their finish position in the MGP - hypothetical question - scaramanga - 25-06-2015
good point
interesting post
RE: TT Newcomers - their finish position in the MGP - hypothetical question - bsa499 - 25-06-2015
I don't mean to be awkward as I agree it is an interesting post but isn't the MGP maximum capacity 1000 cc twins / triples and 750 cc four cylinders? It certainly used to be.
RE: TT Newcomers - their finish position in the MGP - hypothetical question - Kursaal Flyer - 25-06-2015
A super sport 600 would be legal for a Manx Newcomer in class A where a large % of the bikes are 600 's . I am assuming this is how the question was intended to be understood.
RE: TT Newcomers - their finish position in the MGP - hypothetical question - wsn03 - 25-06-2015
(25-06-2015, 12:55 PM)Kursaal Flyer Wrote: A super sport 600 would be legal for a Manx Newcomer in class A where a large % of the bikes are 600 's . I am assuming this is how the question was intended to be understood.
Yep spot on. The other bikes allowed in the MGP aren't comparable with the Supersport class anyway, and I think most wins in the senior have been on 600s more or less.
RE: TT Newcomers - their finish position in the MGP - hypothetical question - HammerHead - 25-06-2015
I had a little look at lunchtime to see what I could find. Of course all of this takes no account of weather and track conditions nor the possibility of tagging onto a faster rider and lapping faster than might have happened on their own. Still it's only for a matter of interest (and discussion).
2014
The only TT newcomer to complete either supersport race was Alan Bonner. His time of 1:19:28.165 in SSP TT 1 would have been good enough for 8th in the MGP Junior race. His time at the end of the third lap (0:59:36.073) would have got him 4th in the Newcomers A race run over three laps. He upped his game in the second supersport race and would have bettered his placings to 6th and 3rd with times of 1:18:28.740 and 0:59:26.779 respectively.
2013
Sam Wilson completed supersport TT race 1 in a time of 1:18:42.419 which would have given him an 8th place finish in the Junior MGP. It would have won him the newcomers A race.
2012
There were two supersport TT race 1 finishers, but no-one finished race 2. Jimmy Storrar (1:21:25.11) would have finished 9th in the Junior MGP and Gary Graves (1:25:50.39) would have finished 37th. Taking their times at the end of lap three and comparing them to the Newcomers A race results Jimmy Storrar (1:01:16.76) would have won and Gary Graves (1:04:48.33) would have finished 4th.
2011
There were 4 TT newcomers that finished both supersport races in 2011 - Dean Harrison (who had raced previously at the MGP), Robert Wilson, Dan Hegarty and Lee Vernon. The first supersport TT was run over only 3 laps so I have compared the times to the end of the third lap of the Junior MGP. All four competitors SSP TT race 1 times (only 3 laps) would have placed them first at the end of lap 3 of the Junior MGP. Their times would also have won them the Newcomers A race with the exception of Lee Vernon who would have finished 4th.
Their SSP TT race 2 times would have won all four of them the Junior MGP that year. Their times at the end of lap three would also have won them the Newcomers A race, again with the exception of Lee Vernon would would have been 4th.
2010
The 2010 Junior MGP was run over 1 lap. The newcomers A race was run over 4 laps. 8 TT newcomers finished the SSP TT race 1 and 6 of those also finished the SSP TT race 2.
In summary at the end of lap 1 of the SSP TT 1 (and assuming they were the only one slotted in to the Junior MGP results) the finishing positions would have been Hudson Kennaugh (5th), David Johnson (9th), Dan Cooper (also 9th), David Jones (a former MGP rider - 17th), Brandon Cretu (28th), Gary May (33rd), Martin Loicht (46th) and Takahiro Itami (55th).
Their positions in the newcomers A race after 4 laps would have been Hudson Kennaugh (1st), David Johnson (also 1st), Dan Cooper (3rd), David Jones (7th), Brandon Cretu (also 7th), Gary May (also 7th), Martin Loicht (9th) and Takahiro Itami (also 9th).
At the end of lap 1 of the SSP TT 2 (again assuming they were the only one slotted in to the Junior MGP results) the finishing positions would have been David Johnson (8th), Hudson Kennaugh (15th), Dan Cooper (17th), Brandon Cretu (28th), David Jones (29th), Martin Loicht (52nd) and Takahiro Itami (62nd).
Their positions in the newcomers A race after 4 laps would have been David Johnson (1st), Hudson Kennaugh (3rd), Dan Cooper (4th), Brandon Cretu (7th), David Jones (also 7th) and Takahiro Itami (10th).
RE: TT Newcomers - their finish position in the MGP - hypothetical question - DBD 34 - 25-06-2015
Jeez, must have been some lunch! It's like you've researched for an A level,(Only joking)..
I reckon Derek McGee would have been on top step based on this years speeds on a 600.
RE: TT Newcomers - their finish position in the MGP - hypothetical question - beetroot - 26-06-2015
Derek would have won the 2014 Newcomers A ,junior and Senior with his Supersport race 1 average speed of 118+
RE: TT Newcomers - their finish position in the MGP - hypothetical question - wsn03 - 26-06-2015
What a piece of analysis!!! Thank you, very very interesting, and not what I was expecting. I thought the domination of the TT newcomers would have been much higher when pitched against the MGP speeds.
McGee is one I was thinking of, I thought he went really well.
So are we saying his 600 times would have been quick enough to have won the MGP Senior (or the newcomers Senior only)?
RE: TT Newcomers - their finish position in the MGP - hypothetical question - HammerHead - 26-06-2015
Beetroot is right - Derek McGhee's TT SSP race result 1 (let alone race 2 which was quicker) would have won him every MGP race in 2014. His TT race times were the fastest in the supersport class by a newcomer since Steve Plater in 2007.
Perhaps more interesting were the times of the other newcomer this year Robbin Harms. No disrespect is meant at all but he was running towards the rear of the TT field. His time for three laps of the SSP TT race 1 would have put him in 7th in the 2014 newcomers A MGP and he improved in race 2 such that his times would have gained him 4th place. He would have finished in the top 20 of both the MGP junior and senior with his SSP TT1 times and his SSP TT2 race time would have got him into the top 10 of the MGP senior (11th in the junior).
RE: TT Newcomers - their finish position in the MGP - hypothetical question - wsn03 - 26-06-2015
I'm a bit surprised to see the times of some of these TT newcomers, especially in relation to their positions in the MGP newcomers races - I really would have thought they might have been higher up the placings. I've thought the newcomers at the MGP have been much faster in recent years, I didn't realise they were that fast.
The MGP really has produced some fascinating and fast racing of late at the top end, it will be interesting to see who makes it through to a strong TT career moving forward. Hats of to McGee, one to watch in the future.
RE: TT Newcomers - their finish position in the MGP - hypothetical question - smokey125 - 26-06-2015
Don't forget in all this that due to the restricted practice at the Manx a lot of the newcomers will be starting their race with half the amount of practice that a TT newcomer gets.
RE: TT Newcomers - their finish position in the MGP - hypothetical question - ericcane - 26-06-2015
Find the Robbins Harms situation strange.A few weeks ago,people on here were saying "He crashes a lot on short circuits/An accident waiting to happen.Then he does a few steady laps,maybe to learn the course for next year and he's rubbish.Maybe he's doing it right.
RE: TT Newcomers - their finish position in the MGP - hypothetical question - wsn03 - 26-06-2015
Who said Robbin Harms was rubbish? Not read that on here.
RE: TT Newcomers - their finish position in the MGP - hypothetical question - ericcane - 27-06-2015
Sorry,I didn't put that too well did I?What I was trying to say was that people had concerns over his riding style not being suited to the TT.Then because he finished down the field,there seemed to be some disappointment that he wasn't higher up the finishing order.
RE: TT Newcomers - their finish position in the MGP - hypothetical question - wsn03 - 27-06-2015
Understood....I think it's great that a newcomer takesxhis tome to safely learn it, there shouldn't be any expectations on them.
RE: TT Newcomers - their finish position in the MGP - hypothetical question - chris - 27-06-2015
Apart from MotoGP, and World Endurance riders, I think ALL riders should have to race in the MGP before the TT. Maybe the MGP (and Classic TT) should be run in June, and the TT in Aug/Sept, then if any 'superstars' emerge from the 'June MGP', they are allowed to start in the Aug/Sept TT.
RE: TT Newcomers - their finish position in the MGP - hypothetical question - captainsparkledotcom - 28-06-2015
(27-06-2015, 11:44 PM)chris Wrote: .. I think ALL riders should have to race in the MGP before the TT....I agreed with that, until I thought, perhaps they could just limit newcomers to Junior/Supertwins classes at the TT.
From a 'business' point of view that could be prudent? A big name newcomer at the Manx wouldn't be that beneficial for 'TT people'.
Personally, yep, do the Manx first, that's the way!
RE: TT Newcomers - their finish position in the MGP - hypothetical question - Sam Pato - 28-06-2015
(28-06-2015, 12:40 AM)captainsparkledotcom Wrote: I agreed with that, until I thought, perhaps they could just limit newcomers to Junior/Supertwins classes at the TT.Its a bit of a two edge sword.
From a 'business' point of view that could be prudent? A big name newcomer at the Manx wouldn't be that beneficial for 'TT people'.
Personally, yep, do the Manx first, that's the way!
I just read an interview with Alan Bonner on the independent.i.e. website. A quote from it reads;
'The chat returned to the TT and Alan knows that it will be a challenge, and when I posed the obvious question - why he isn't doing the Manx Grand Prix first - his reply was swift: 'The TT is top of my list, and the reason that I didn't do the Manx first is simple, there would be too much pressure on me to win, and I want to go and enjoy myself there.'
Image the pressure someone like Steve Plater would have been under (at the Manx). I'd also imagine it gets peoples backs up when full time professionals show up at the Manx.
Regards
Sam
RE: TT Newcomers - their finish position in the MGP - hypothetical question - beetroot - 29-06-2015
Robbin did exactly as was asked of him in his first TT and steadily went faster with every lap he did. There was no pressure on him at all and we just wanted him to enjoy his first ever road race. Adapting from a short circuit style to the roads is not as easy as some make it look and we were all proud to be part of his first taste of the TT. He certainly has the talent to go far and we wish him luck for the future.