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The "shrinking TT" - Anonymous - 12-01-2004
I've gathered some figures (I won't call them statistics for obvious reasons) which might make interesting reading.
They cover solos for 1984 to 2002 inclusive.
Make of them what you will.
Number of incidents on
Lap 1 of a 3 lap race = 7
Lap 1 of a 4 lap race = 16
Lap 1 of a 6 lap race = 10
Lap 2 of a 2 lap race = 3
Lap 2 of a 3 lap race = 1
Lap 2 of a 4 lap race = 14
Lap 2 of a 6 lap race = 7
Lap 3 of a 3 lap race = 4
Lap 3 of a 4 lap race = 16
Lap 3 of a 6 lap race = 9
Lap 4 of a 4 lap race = 13
Lap 4 of a 6 lap race = 15
Lap 5 of a 6 lap race = 10
Lap 6 of a 6 lap race = 9
So lap 1 has 33 incidents
Lap 2 has 25
Lap 3 has 29
Lap 4 has 28
Lap 5 has 10
Lap 6 has 9
This doesn't take account of the number of 6 lap races versus the number of 4 lap races and maybe any statisticians out there could come to some conclusions.
The list of locations also makes interesting reading.
I've only included here places with 5 or more incidents( but I have included practice incidents)..
Governors 43 (30 in practice)
Quarter Bridge 29 (20 in practice)
Braddan 21 (17 in practice)
Greeba Castle 14 (9 in practice)
Bungalow 14 (13 in practice)
Laurel bank 14 (10 in practice)
Creg 12 (5 in practice)
Brandywell 11 (8 in practice)
Sulby Bridge 11 (7 in practice)
Guthries 10 (2 in practice)
Cruikshanks 10 (7 in practice)
Nook 9 (5 in practice)
Sarahs 9 (6 in practice)
Waterworks 9 (6 in practice)
Windy Corner 9 (8 in practice)
Parliament Square 9 (7 in practice)
Hairpin 9 (8 in practice)
Ballaugh 8 (7 in practice).
Brandish 8 (7 in practice)
Quarry Bends 8 (2 in practice)
Signpost 8 (6 in practice)
Union Mills 7 (5 in practice )
Kates/Keppel 7 (5 in practice)
Kerrowmoar 7 (6 in practice)
Gooseneck 6 (4 in practice)
Barregarrow 6 (all in practice)
Greeba Bridge 6 (3 in practice)
Whitegates 6 (3 in practice)
Glen Helen 5 (3 in practice)
Start line !!! 3 (all in practice)
There are obviously a number of black spots which could possibly be highlighted to riders, and it is also evident that the majority of incidents take place in practice.
I don't think that the weather or whether it was morning or evening had any major bearing on the number of incidents, though again statisticians could probably make more of it.
Re: The "shrinking TT" - Anonymous - 12-01-2004
that's odd
Re: The "shrinking TT" - Anonymous - 12-01-2004
......the supreme test of man and machine ???....
Is four laps enough
Re: The "shrinking TT" - Anonymous - 12-01-2004
Well...if they're going to crash on the startline...
Seriously, the figures are very interesting although as Billy admits, not statistically accurate, and I suppose the first argument would be that perhaps there are less incidents in the final laps because there are less people...they fell off earlier (or broke down or whatever.)
That'snot, however to say I agree with shortening the races. I totally disagree with that...just we have to be careful not to look unconvincing.
More analysis would be interesting...what kind of incident? What caused it...eg, machine fault, rider error, other rider's error, etc
Re: The "shrinking TT" - Anonymous - 13-01-2004
well where did you get the figures are they TT & MGP because i can tell you cruikshanks has had at least treble that amount
we had 5 riders off in 1 night
Re: The "shrinking TT" - Anonymous - 13-01-2004
There are lies, damn lies and statistics !!!!!
Re: The "shrinking TT" - Anonymous - 13-01-2004
Come on Ian - "supreme test of man and machine"??
Bit of an Edwardian view that - it's a bloody motor cycle race, that's all!!!
Nobody suggests that Formula One races should be as the 1913 French Grand Prix - over 900 kilometres and 4 minutes short of 8 hours!
I can remember watching a 500 Ulster Grand Prix which ran over 20 laps of Dundrod - that was 1961.
Time moves on, and we have to move with it.
Re: The "shrinking TT" - Anonymous - 13-01-2004
I agree Larry, but the point was that I don't know anyone who is in favour of reducing the laps.
Spectators don't want it, and I am informed that it is not known that any riders are in favour either. I know of at least one who thinks it should be longer.
I wonder how the justification for reducing it was decided on.
Re: The "shrinking TT" - Anonymous - 13-01-2004
I was speaking to someone from the A.C.U regarding proposed changes some time ago, and he said a study had proved that people are only capable of concentrating on any one task for an hour. The intimation being the races would be shortened. I attempted to get hold of the Manx motorcycle clubs incident book which holds the 'truth'. But they are unwilling, less it should fall into the wrong hands..... Fair point I suppose, but it would be interesting to see unmolested stats on incident and reason.
Re: The "shrinking TT" - Anonymous - 13-01-2004
Larry wrote:
>
Yes, TT is really a great matter for to study the conflict between the conservatorian and progressive point of view!!! I'm following TT problems from Italy (last year was first time for me on the island), for me it's an incredible, marvellous, unbeliveable thing that there is still a motorcycle race like the TT - but I don't have optimistic opinions about the future of the TT races. You say "time moves on and we have to move with it". Of course you are right. But we who? "To move with the time" could mean to abandon motorcycle races on the Mountain Course (I mean a 60 km long circuit of public roads between walls, houses, trees etc.) and to race the TT on a different course. If it means this, would you say that "we have to move with the time"??
Sincerely,
Marco - Italia
Re: The "shrinking TT" - Anonymous - 13-01-2004
Can't answer that Marco.
We don't know where time will take us!!
Re: The "shrinking TT" - Anonymous - 13-01-2004
I was waching a programme on horse racing on BBC World, many jockeys died doing the thing they love. Does that mean that there will be an end to horse racing? The Grand national is frowned upon here in germany as animal cruelty. Does that mean that the brits have to stop doing it?.... I Don't Think So!!!! Personaly I think Horse Racing is more dangerous than riding the Bike around the TT. The Horse has a mind of its own, Bikes do not.
The TT will go on for many years even though there have been many accidents and deaths.
Re: The "shrinking TT" - Anonymous - 13-01-2004
Larry wrote: "We don't know where time will take us!!"
Yes Larry, all we can say actually is that time will change our beloved TT races. This is a reasonably certain statement. But really we don't know nothing about the direction of the change?. It seems to me that there is a basilar contradiction between the TT as we know it and the direction of the change (i.e. the way of changing of the things in our days; think only to the relationship between technology, economics and the progressive reduction of the risk!). All things can change, but the direction of the change seems really difficult to change! And it seems to contradict the TT as we know it. The TT rule changes of this year, and the next we are forced to wait for, could be simply related to that basilar contradiction. We can say that so: all things change, but TT would want to remain the same! This seemed to be the TT philosophy until last year.
Sincerely,
Marco
Re: The "shrinking TT" - Anonymous - 13-01-2004
There is an alternative 'ROADRACING IRELAND' and its value for money.
Re: The "shrinking TT" - Anonymous - 14-01-2004
Marco, in your country you had the Targa Florio, which I was fortunate to see, and now it is no more.
It was held on an island on public roads. One lap was 45 miles, I think, and there were rock walls, mountains and villages.
You also had the Mille Miglia and now it has passed into history.
I think we all shudder when we hear talk of the end of the TT,
especially when there are some members of the IOM government
who think that by closing the TT they can INCREASE tourist numbers!!
Would you or I have ever visited the IOM without the TT?
Re: The "shrinking TT" - Anonymous - 14-01-2004
Re: The "shrinking TT" - Anonymous - 14-01-2004
It can be quite picturesque at times as long as you stay away from
the Port St Mary / Foxdale area especially in the Mumming season,
there are a few loonies abroad.
Re: The "shrinking TT" - Anonymous - 14-01-2004
I occasionally stay there, Don, but I wouldn't go out at night. Strange, unexplained things happen.....
Re: The "shrinking TT" - Anonymous - 14-01-2004
You are a braver "person" than me Helen.
I stay as far north as I can get, up in Wallaby country.
There are not many bridesmaids in Bride though.
It is actually a place called Lamb Hill where they have to have
an electric fence to keep sheep fanciers and team owners out.
Re: The "shrinking TT" - Anonymous - 14-01-2004
Yes Don, we italian had the marvellous Targa Florio. It was raced on the "Madonia circuit" in Sicilia, on public roads, and one lap was 45 miles (72 km). It was abolished in 1977. It was much less fast than the Mountain circuit, but in some shots you can see the people at the side of the village roads and a Ferrari or a Porsche on the middle!!. Few people know that also motorcycles raced in the '20s and '30s on the circuit of the "Targa Florio". In some editions of the '20s and '30s it was used a longer circuit: it was 67 miles long. (108 km)
You are right. I would never have visited the isle of Man without the TT races. But this speech involves the economical protection (tourism) of the TT races. We can not refuse to understand that the TT races as we know them now contradict essentially the "modern" concept of risk. To have saved the TT races will mean to have saved that very special concept of risk. You british and manxman who looked at the TT races since many times can not understand which is the first impression for a continental visitor. I had been many times at the F1 car Gp, and I spectated at the Italian Gp from the Lesmo corner (it was a flat out bend, 270 km/h in 5th gear) and at the Imola GP from the Tamburello and Villeneueve corners (they were more than 300 km/h flat out bends), but when last year I was on the last day of practices at bottom Bray Hill and the next day on the descent for the F1 bike race...oh, it was really a VERY different thing: I was with out words (the greatest experience in my motor sport life!). It needs a very special concept of risk, not only in the riders but also in the organisers.
Sincerely,
Marco