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+--- Thread: Time to take stock (/showthread.php?tid=3856)
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Time to take stock - Anonymous - 04-09-2005
I have to say how saddened i am by the loss of life in this years events.
Yes, I agree that we must stay calm and not rush to any conclusions.
However, the numer of deaths this year is unacceptable.
Whatever the causes were, there is no answer to the "too dangerous" brigade.
Once the numbers reached the level we have seen this year, an alarm bell should go off.
If the story about the marshall and the rope is true, then things have gone badly wrong.
I feel that the time has come for a major look at how the races are run and a close examination of all the safety measures and rules.
You may say that I am going OTT. Well, you would be entitled tou your opinion as I am to mine.
BUT, and its big but, wouldnt it be better for us to put our own house in order? That is before some outside body steps in.
I am sorry if my views upset anyone.
The fact is, I love the Island and the races and only wish them well, long term. I also know that there wont be a long term, if nothing is done.
Mike
MV
Re: Time to take stock - Anonymous - 04-09-2005
If the story about the marshall and the rope is true, then things have gone badly wrong.
100% true.
Re: Time to take stock - Anonymous - 04-09-2005
I have to support your views Mike. It had to be said.
As you mentioned, I am also worried that we are open to the "Big Brother" syndrome and "do-Gooders" stepping in and imposing legislation to stop our Road racing.
We have to come up with pro-active solutions from within.
Improved soft hazard barriers are a start. Lets get busy with the fund raising now. The helicopters are only a back-up solution, after the event.
Re: Time to take stock - Anonymous - 04-09-2005
How many people chose to stay in New Orleans?
The warnings were there days in advance.
Everytime we board an aircraft it is our decision alone. We accept the risk.
For a roadracer the Mountain Course is the big one and no matter how dreadful
are the consequences they are accepted at the fall of that flag.
Those of us who are left behind celebrate their commitment and their skill.
Their names will never be forgotten.
Someone dies of AIDS after taking a risk and their friends morn them just as long.
One slip on the ice and another climber pays the price.
Someone else goes down the street to buy some fish and chips and never comes back -
do we ban eating fish and chips, do we ban mountain climbing, do we ban flying?
"There is no danger to a man that knows
What life and death is: there's not any law
Exceeds his knowledge; neither is it lawful
That he should stoop to any other law."
CHAPMAN.
Re: Time to take stock - Anonymous - 04-09-2005
Don i read your posting with mixed feelings but the harsh fact is 6 brave men lost their lives and that is totally unaceptable,i have been a road race fan for years and have lost good friends on the circuit but there is no way we can make the TT circuit safe? its all been discussed before. And before anyone accuses me of over reacting i admire the riders courage and have even entered riders in the past but i am in tears thinking of the ones left behind.
Re: Time to take stock - Anonymous - 04-09-2005
I dont know what the answer here is , we all know what this circuit is about , one fatality is to many but each & every year it happens sometimes one sometimes two or three but it happens , the riders know & accept this , the spectators know & accept this yet we all return year after year , the year i lost my own brother there where five fatalities but every one was back next year . It is hard to put a number at which the panic buttons are pressed .
It is very difficult to make the circuit safer , four of the riders killed where classic riders all in there fifties , riding the most demanding circuit in the world for four laps takes the fittest & sharpest enough effort .
Nobody can tell me you are as focused & sharp in your fifties as you are in your twenties . Dont get me wrong i admire all these riders & whilst favouring the modern racers , i enjoy the classic MGP immensly . I do however think there should perhaps be an age cap of 50 , & perhaps dropping the length of the races from 4 laps down to 3 or even 2 lap events .
It is a very difficult & emotive subject each & every one of us has a view , but we all want the same thing .
Re: Time to take stock - Anonymous - 04-09-2005
Don i also read your posting with very mixed feelings.
The people that sadly lost their lives in New Orleans ? to be honest i truly don`t think anyone appreciated the magnitude of what was to come and sadly watching the tv coverage i reckon that many hundreds of the people left in the situation were amongst the poorest people who probably could not afford to leave behind the megre possetions that they owned.
In the same breath i am astounded that a country as supposidly civilised as America left people to starve, and run riot in the streets for approx 5 days if what has been reported is true which i am in no doubt it would appear to be.
It has been a tragic couple of weeks for roadracing with the tragic deaths on the Island and the death of a young up and coming star in the 125 class at BSB who was only 14yrs old. Despite his tender age he had been racing for a number of years and was at the time 4th, i think in the 125 British Championship.
To be honest i truly don`t think that racers go out "knowing" what could happen. We lost our adored son two yrs ago in a racing accident and nieve as it may sound i never thought about what "could" happen despite loosing friends over the years to the sport.
I just wanted our son to do well as i knew that he put everything he could into his sport and i hoped he would achieve the potential that He and others believed he could.
I hope that in the weeks to come that, if possible, lessons may be learned from all the racing accidents and improvements and perhaps a rewriting of the rules if it was deemed as appropriate.
I do share Shauns concern regading not only age, but also the amount of racing these gentlemen have during the rest of the year ? I would in no way wish to suggest that this has been a factor in any of the accidents, but as i have said before i hope all incidents are looked into and perhaps lessons learned for the future.
Sincere thoughts for all of those who have been affected by the accidents of the last two weeks.You are most certainly in my thoughts.
Stella.
Re: Time to take stock - Anonymous - 05-09-2005
Well said Stella. None of us would ever set foot on a race track if we actually knew that doing so would cost us so dear.
Perhaps it's human nature to think it will never happen to me?
I am deeply saddened over the tragic losses but people loosing their lives all around the world on a daily basis doesn't make it OK for the same thing to happen in our sport, if there is some way to prevent that loss.
I have no magic solution but feel we must do as much as we can to reduce the risks.
Pete Barnett
Re: Time to take stock - Anonymous - 05-09-2005
Its clear that my initial posting has been taken to heart and people here are already taking stock. Now, I was aware of how many of you good people have been directly affected by bereavement through racing, before I "opened my mouth"
All I am saying now is that we must take any action to reduce the risks. The days of "the throttle works both ways" are surely long gone.
So, power to the elbow of all charged with the task of risk reduction.
On a personal note of irony?
I was out at Pamelas office do on Friday night and met her new boss, a lady called Hannah. We all had a super time, especially with Hannahs hubby Paul. Sadly, Paul collapsed and died during the evening. It brought home to me that we anyone can be taken at anytime. Just lets keep the odds as even as possible...
Mike
MV
Re: Time to take stock - Anonymous - 05-09-2005
Mike, I again agree.
I have seen comments on other sites about the fear of sanitizing the Mountain Course and idicating that it should not be made like the Short Circuits.
The mountain course can never be like a closed circuit. They don't have Kerbs, Hump-Back Bridges, White Lines, Trees Lamp Posts,etc.
The special racing skills will always be needed there for the real road racing.
Who knows, if we can improve the rider's safety significantly, lap and race speeds will go ever higher.
Re: Time to take stock - Anonymous - 05-09-2005
Mike, you have had just the same kind of grounding experience I had when I came back from the TT, to find a young woman had been run over at my usual bus stop. She hadn't been taking any forseeable risk, but she is gone.
We must live every moment as if it is our last, and treat every new day as if it is our first.
You can pack a lot into a short life, or waste a long one. I only have this one go at life, so I am making the most of it, and, of course, taking risks. Life is a risk, and the only certainty is death. How that happens is not our choice, but we may contribute.
Re: Time to take stock - Anonymous - 06-09-2005
I have been very heartened by the comments on this thread. As I already knew, there are some lovely souls involved in road racing and the wonderful Isle of Man!
No wonder I cant brwak either habit!!
2007 sees my 40th anniversary as well as the TT centenary. its alo the year that i am SUPPOSED to retire, but we will see. Needless to say, the TT is centeral to my plans for that year....
Mike
Re: Time to take stock - Anonymous - 06-09-2005
I have to say I completely disagree with the suggested impossition of an age cap on the racing. Or shortening the classic events.
My dad achieved all of his best results after the age of 50 and continued improving every year. Last year he came second at age 55 so being over 50 was hardly affecting him.
He played squash regularly and could comprehenisvely kick the bottom of 20 year olds and anyone that doesn't think you have to be fit to play squash isn't playing it right. He had also joined a gymn recently and the instructor declared him to be fit.
Also the classic races should certainly not be scrapped or shortened. In my opinion they are the best classes at the manx and are wot makes it special and different from the TT.
I accept that too many people died this year and one person dying is far too many but up until now the classic races have had a good record, so I think it's too early to start penalising the riders that love them soo much. I know that if someone else was killed my dad would have still returned next year.
Re: Time to take stock - Anonymous - 06-09-2005
The TT and Manx needs people like you Will.You obviously understand what it is all about and why we do it.NEVER does the media say ban horse racing,mountaineering,potholing etc.Some of these activities involve a great risk to the rescuers themselves,far more than in our sport.I admire your courage in such a difficult time and heartfelt thanks for your support.
Re: Time to take stock - Anonymous - 06-09-2005
Being another of the riders who is "well over" 50 I must say that I agree with you, Will. The Classic races shouldnt be scrapped or shortened, why stop all those riders doing what they enjoy doing. This year was a very bad year, lets hope next year is much better.
Sincere condolences to you and all your family in this sad time,Will.
Colin Hammond
Re: Time to take stock - Anonymous - 06-09-2005
Thanx everyone for your support.
It really gets to me that people would blame the fitness of people over 50. Or the machine preparation since it was a classic.
We were as professional in our approach to the manx as any of the top modern people, and if you look at the quality of the riders you have to beat to win the classic races (chris palmer etc) you can see why we took our racing seriously. And believe me we were there to win both races.
Also i'd like to add that my father was a racing man not a practice man so he wouldn't have been pushing it on that practice, we will never know wot caught him out, but anyone who watched him at the pre-tt and manx will know how steady he was in practices from the fact the despite his good podium record we never had a front row start at billown, and last year his fastest lap in manx practice was 98mph but he did 103mph in the race.
Re: Time to take stock - Anonymous - 07-09-2005
I too am agaist the Ageist thing.
Although I have never had the guts to take up road racing, I started Motocross just before I was 55.
After a slow start with me messing around and gaining points because I did not fall off too much, I really got the bug and soon was topping the Novice Class. I was doing well in the Intermediate until one leg and both ankles broken slowed me down a we bit. Well, I could not get my boots on.
I was mixing it with 18 to 30 year olds, and became the target to beat.
I think that age does have a moderating effect and the brain stops you (mostly) from exceeding your natural ability.
Even the youngest, fittest, fastest guys get it a bit wrong sometimes.
Mike, 2007 sees my "official" retirement year, being a 1942 war baby, etc. Maybe I will have more time to take up road racing. Can you get a discount on entry fees if you produce a pension book (if they are still in being then)?
Re: Time to take stock - Anonymous - 07-09-2005
Hi Don, you write: "Someone dies of AIDS after taking a risk and their friends morn them just as long.
One slip on the ice and another climber pays the price.
Someone else goes down the street to buy some fish and chips and never comes back -
do we ban eating fish and chips, do we ban mountain climbing, do we ban flying?"
Well, it is the classic and "strongest" argument pro the continuing of the races on the Mountain Circuit. But I think that this argument can work no longer as before. This is because this argument is based on a presupposition that if rendered explicited can invalidate your argument. In this argument you consider the TT as a *natural* event that existes in front of the riders indipendently from the human will and decision. You *naturalize* the TT races. But this is an error. In fact the TT races is an event organized by the human will. So the human will that organizes the TT races must say to itself more or less explicity:"I'm going to organize an event that will almost surely produce the death of a certain number of human beings".
It's this aspect to destroy the strength of your argument. I say this with great sadness as I am a great TT fan who hopes that they will go on "for ever".
So the question is: "Do we want to organize two events that the last year took away 9 riders?". This is the question and we can not deceive ourselves. Do we still have the strength to answer: "yes, we want!". It is an AUT-AUT, as to much the Mountain circuit safer is an utopia that can destroys in few years the possibility of organizing the TT and MGP races on that circuit.
Re: Time to take stock - Anonymous - 07-09-2005
Re: Time to take stock - Anonymous - 07-09-2005
The TT & MGP are anachronisms in this nanny-mentality riddled modern world of ours, where road safety campaigners (not funded by train and coach companies, oh no) constantly moan that one death is too much. Perhaps we have evaded their attention precisely because of what Marco says, that these are special events only ridden by people who voluntarily put themselves at risk.
Although this year's death toll was terrible it is not unheard of. However nowadays,unlike in past years, we have to worry about the growing financial sector pressure to do away with anything that threatens their cosy little island tax haven, like tourists and noisy motorbikes waking them up with morning practice or disrupting their evening commute home. The negative side to the racing not only affects us personally but could also provide them ammunition.
I have the greatest respect for those who have lost loved ones yet still support the racing. In respect of them and for the sake of all of us who want to see the racing go on the safety aspects of the circuit must be subject to ongoing scrutiny and improvement. The racing is still a major money-spinner for the Island and it's not unreasonable to expect money to be spent by IOMG to keep it going as long as possible, part of which should include doing all that is reasonably possible to mitigate the likelihood and effects of a crash. I know of a number of people who have been injured sliding into square kerbs yet these are still in place most of the way round. Airfences are a great introduction and need to be deployed more extensively. Unlike strawbales these can be used year after year so they should provide a long term saving as well!
The races will always have risks and while those who ride accept them the risks should nevertheless be minimised, for the good of the riders and ultimately the whole event.