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Machine Eligibility Questions. - sqwelch - 09-02-2009
Hello,
I'm after a bit of advice.
Firstly, am I correct in thinking that a Yamaha TZR250 2MA is eligible to run in the Lightweight/Ultra Lighweight race?
Secondly, are you allowed to ride in two races in one day?
And lastly, should an RD350 31K (1983) be eligible for the new post classic class?
Just trying make sure I get things right before I fork out a load of money!
Thanks for you help.
Paul
RE: Machine Eligibility Questions. - Tomcat - 09-02-2009
I will leave it to others to answer the eligibility questions but I suspect the answer, if it appears to be eligible, it probably is.
To your second question, yes.
Bear in mind you will still have to qualify on speed and if you're riding something considerably slower than others in the class you may struggle.
RE: Machine Eligibility Questions. - sqwelch - 10-02-2009
Thanks for the reply.
Valid point about the qualifying.
I've done a bit more reading.
Even though the TZR only makes about 50bhp, it'd still be a lightweight I think, which is 94mph to qualify. Plus I understand that the lightweight class is the one that TT riders are going to be allowed into..........
I think the post classic race is a better option. Only one race per day would be preferable.
I'd probably be happy to just run my 600 on it's own if I knew I was going to get more track time than last year!
Surely, the weather CANNOT be so bad again?!?!?
Paul.
RE: Machine Eligibility Questions. - Tel - 11-02-2009
From MGP website:-
Post Classic Eligibility Regulations
There has been a certain amount of speculation regarding these regulations so I am taking this opportunity to clarify the situation and explain the thinking of the Manx Motor Cycle Club in making the decisions that were made.
The first problem was “Where can we put an extra race?” At our meeting last Grand Prix week with the club’s ambassadors, there was almost total agreement that the Newcomers race should not be dropped even though numbers of competitors had fallen over the years. None of the other races could be dropped and trying to fit another race into the programme was not possible bearing in mind the cancellations that bedevilled last year’s event. We cannot have a race on the Saturday because of the loss of valuable practice time and the Manx Two Day trial so the only answer was to run it at the same time as the Newcomers race. Although there has always been a lot of interest in a Post Classic race, we do not know how many competitors will actually enter, especially with the current economic climate, so we thought that a full grid for the first race of the week was better than running two separate races with limited numbers in a programme that would create so many problems for all concerned should there be any postponements..
The second problem was “What should the regulations be for the Post Classic machines?” I am the Chief Technical Official for the Manx Grand Prix but I am not an Eligibility Officer for Classic machines. The only time we see Classic machines on the Isle of Man is on the Southern 100 circuit and at the Grand Prix so I have to lean heavily on people with the necessary knowledge as far as eligibility is concerned. The Classic regulations have been refined and modified over 25years, with the Post Classics we were starting from scratch so I consulted one of our ambassadors who is very knowledgeable for the eras that we were looking at. Yes, I only consulted one person because I have found out that as far as regulations go, you cannot please all the people, all of the time and the larger the group, the more diverse the opinions become. So my brief to the ambassador was to have two classes, two stroke and four stroke with as few regulations as possible to make it easy as possible to enter and race but bearing in mind that the machines would be sharing the course with Newcomers.
Please remember that this is the first year for the Post Classics and it may be that I have got it wrong but we needed a starting point and these regulations have been used in order to get as many machines on the grid as possible and to make the race the spectacle it deserves to be. For next year, we may have to modify the criteria but until we have tried it, we do not know how things will pan out.
I have made two important changes
The requirement for standard ignition systems on the two strokes was not a good idea and has been removed.
The cut off date for 500cc two strokes has been changed to 31st December 1982.
One final clarification is that modified road machines will be considered for the 126-250cc class with the cut off dates 1st January 1985 - 31st December 1991 but priority will be given to genuine racing machines.
Jeff Kirby. Chief Technical Officer.
POST CLASSIC ELIGIBILITY
Four Stroke
501-1000cc 2 valves per cylinder, cut off date 31st December 1981.
Two stroke
126-250cc Grand Prix Factory Bikes Steel frame or period aluminium frame, any brakes, any wheels, cut off date 31st December 1984.
126-250cc. Standard frames, Standard fairing, no airboxes. Any brakes. Cut off dates 1st January 1985 - 31st December 1991.
251-350cc Steel frame, any brakes, any wheels. Cut off date 31st December 1984.
351-500cc Two stroke up to 31st December 1982, Steel frame, any brakes, period fairing.
RE: Machine Eligibility Questions. - cargo - 11-02-2009
Just to clarify a point TT competitors are allowed in all Post classic classes
RE: Machine Eligibility Questions. - Tomcat - 12-02-2009
cargo Wrote:Just to clarify a point TT competitors are allowed in all Post classic classes
There's a fair possibility I won't bother to enter then. If I wanted to race against current TT riders with big-money sponsors I'd apply to ride the TT.
RE: Machine Eligibility Questions. - cregnybaa - 12-02-2009
Tomcat Wrote:cargo Wrote:Just to clarify a point TT competitors are allowed in all Post classic classes
There's a fair possibility I won't bother to enter then. If I wanted to race against current TT riders with big-money sponsors I'd apply to ride the TT.
Well said Tomcat i do think the manx is losing its way with this encouraging tt riders to do the manx so what are the organizers doing to encourage the regular manx riders who have supported the event for years they know they wont be able to compete with the tt riders and there sponsors so just like you quite a few may not bother can you blame them?
RE: Machine Eligibility Questions. - Rich - 13-02-2009
"Well said Tomcat i do think the manx is losing its way with this encouraging tt riders to do the manx so what are the organizers doing to encourage the regular manx riders who have supported the event for years they know they wont be able to compete with the tt riders and there sponsors so just like you quite a few may not bother can you blame them?"
I think this is what many current Classic riders have been saying for years!! Plus the faster the top riders get makes it harder for the "normal" Manx riders to win a replica.
I'm all for the additional entrants but there should be some distinction between the amateurs and professionals.
RE: Machine Eligibility Questions. - Will Loder - 14-02-2009
I've got involved in this debate a stack of times in a load of different threads now......I still think its nice having the TT riders there, Farquar didn't walk the 500 race this year and the Gary Johnson wont be returning on the MV. If I was a big money sponsor I'd want my bike to win.....and to do that you need a quality rider on it, Oversby and Richardson are easily good enough to compete at the TT and there arent many riders of that calibre in classic racing who want to do the manx, so who exactly is the big money sponsor supposed to give his bike to?
Also have you considered that it would be no eaiser to win a replica if you took away the TT riders, the 500 time would only have been 20 seconds slower and the best TT superstar in the junior classic only came 3rd..... All removing the TT riders would achieve, is making the race a lot less competiitve at the front. For my dad beating the TT riders was part of the attraction, after all, to say you are the best you have to beat the best......winning by miles is boring and I would see it as a hollow victory if it was against a considerably lower calbre of rider.
Also it can be proved mathematically that from 1997 to 2007 it got progressively easier to win a replica as the race times stoppepd getting faster whlist the course and machines continued to improve.....the last 2 years has merely seen the classes return to the state it was in when Bob Heath (a former TT, GP and factory rider) dominated them.
You have to remember that the Manx is the 'premier' event for classics (and now post classics), so the best bikes, riders, teams, mechanics and tuners should be competing in it. If there was a classic race at the TT then fair enough they should be there.....but if that happened the classic races at the manx would die.
RE: Machine Eligibility Questions. - Jan Grainger - 15-02-2009
From a first time spectator's point of view I was surprised to see the current TT riders taking part in races in the Manx GP last year I can see all points of view here. I did enjoy seeing the top TT boys compete as I was not there for the TT last year, however I felt sorry for the non TT competitors but understand about the entrant's wish to have the best possible racer to compete on their machinery. Difficult to find 'middle ground' here. Maybe the result of the race should be divided into two categories: First of the current TT riders over the line and next division: First of the strictly Manx competitors over the line. It's known to be done in other codes of bike and car racing.
RE: Machine Eligibility Questions. - shipleymanx - 15-02-2009
Jan Grainger Wrote:From a first time spectator's point of view I was surprised to see the current TT riders taking part in races in the Manx GP last year I can see all points of view here. I did enjoy seeing the top TT boys compete as I was not there for the TT last year, however I felt sorry for the non TT competitors but understand about the entrant's wish to have the best possible racer to compete on their machinery. Difficult to find 'middle ground' here. Maybe the result of the race should be divided into two categories: First of the current TT riders over the line and next division: First of the strictly Manx competitors over the line. It's known to be done in other codes of bike and car racing.One important thing to remember is what ever your views are on the top riders coming in, is the the tourtist board subsidise the manx with a vast amount of money. If they have to justify this spend to Tynwald by making sure the hotels are full and having top riders in enables this to happen this is how the manx will have to be to survive. my own personal view is that the rep times should be split into TT and non TT.
RE: Machine Eligibility Questions. - smokey125 - 16-02-2009
I agree with Will on this one. To be the best you have to beat the best and that counts in every sense.
As a point of interest below is the top of the results from last years Senior classic.
The replica time set by Farquhar was 01 12 57 give or take a second.
For Oversby this would have been 01 13 20.33 easier numbers so that one I’m sure is correct.
This means that even on the basis of separating the TT riders from the Manx riders 1 more person would have got a replica.
1 6 Ryan Farquhar 01 06 19.90 102.385 Replica
2 1 Alan Oversby 01 06 40.30 101.863 Replica
3 7 Allan Brew Seeley 01 08 20.78 99.367 Replica
4 10 Wattie Brown 01 09 12.98 98.118 Replica
5 29 Andy Reynolds 01 09 54.28 97.152 Replica
6 19 Bob Price 01 10 05.64 96.890 Replica
7 25 Ken Davis 01 10 46.92 95.948 Replica
8 33 Chris Swallow 01 10 59.52 95.664 Replica
9 28 Mark Herbertson 01 11 17.05 95.272 Replica
10 12 Dave Madsen-Mygdal 01 11 19.89 95.209 Replica
11 31 Meredydd Owen 01 13 19.93 92.611
12 27 Keith Dixon 01 13 27.00 92.463
It’s also got to be remembered that although it is a lot less common now days 10-15 years ago a lot more of the classic competitors would have a ride at the TT as well, people like Dennis Trollope who weren’t pot hunting or trying to steal replicas of regular Manx riders they just enjoyed racing on the mountain course.
Back to the original topic although the TZR would be eligible for the Lightweight remember that they still practice with the 600’s so unless you ran the TZR and (assuming it’s eligible) the RD in the post classic you wouldn’t get any more practice time only the extra race.
RE: Machine Eligibility Questions. - cregnybaa - 16-02-2009
Ryan only went as fast as he needed to go i think the weather conditions were not good so just wait ontill he is pushed by the likes of guy martin on say another paton then see how many of the manx riders on the singles get replicars the reps are what a lot of people go for put them out of reach for mere mortals and they will stop going there are more mere mortals in any of the races than there are winners.
RE: Machine Eligibility Questions. - sqwelch - 17-02-2009
Quote:Back to the original topic although the TZR would be eligible for the Lightweight remember that they still practice with the 600’s so unless you ran the TZR and (assuming it’s eligible) the RD in the post classic you wouldn’t get any more practice time only the extra race.
I looked at last years regs and the lightweight class is listed as practicing with the classics/ultralightweights???
Is it going to be different this year?
RE: Machine Eligibility Questions. - smokey125 - 17-02-2009
You would have to check with someone like cargo or Tel. I know my brother was out with the 600 but he had a ride in the junior and the lightweight so had to practice on the junior plates with the juniors.
Unfortunately since I decided to sit things out after the first practice session and couldn’t really get into the pits I can’t remember. Thinking about it, you might be right. Having said that it's no guarantee that it will be the same this year!
Everyone’s entitled to there opinion. Personally I don’t think Ryan can go much faster even if he was pushed and if it’s dry you may well see the overall race pace of the Pattons hampered by the change of tyre rule they had last year. Ultimately if Ryan’s capable of going that much faster why didn’t he win the Junior classic as well?
Going back 10-15 years it wasn’t that uncommon for only the top 8 to get replicas I seem to recall 1 year where only the top 3 or 4 got replicas.
As a result the following year they changed the requirement for replicas from the winners to the average of the top 3 (it has since been changed back). I won a replica that year and you know what until we worked out that I was inside what would have been the replica time of the winner alone it felt very hollow.
It’s taken them 10 years of development, several course improvements and professional riders to only just better Bob Heath’s old lap record. So if Bob had carried on how fast would he have been going by now? Would he have still been winning? Almost certainly! Would only a handful of people been winning replicas? I suspect so.
Ultimately if these professionals can go a lot faster so be it, I doubt they can. At the end of the day Alan Oversby has done 107mph lap and I believe he is capable of that sort of race average in the dry. How many of your average Manx competitors would be on replica pace for that sort of speed?
You’ve only got to go to a CRMC meeting to see how big the gap between front and back is at circuit racing. At Scarborough the Matin’s, Palmer’s and Lougher’s didn’t disappear into the distance they were kept honest by the likes of Oversby. They don’t ride the bikes all they time and they don’t know how to get the best from them.
RE: Machine Eligibility Questions. - cargo - 17-02-2009
Generally speaking Lightweights practise with 600s.
However if you have a 600 ride as well then the CoC will grant permission to practise your lightweight in the Classic /Ultralightweight session.
To avoid confusion Classic Lightweight machines practise with the rest of the classics.
RE: Machine Eligibility Questions. - Will Loder - 17-02-2009
Well, said Doug, If the TT riders were so good, then they could win in the 'fairer' Junior classic, after that race Ryan complaind that Paul Coward's bike was "so, much faster" it was 4mph faster......He has a 10mph advantage over everyone in the senior!
I know for a fact Alan Oversby will be riding something this year that will blow away any Paton on top speed, Ollie Linsdell is also riding a Paton (that is quicker than Ryan's through the speed traps) and given Ollie races this thing regularly and blows away the top uk classic riders on it, then there is a very real chance that the lap and race records will be absolutely dessimated.
If Alan were to win with a new lap and race record would you lot still be complaining? He is a 'normal' manx bloke who doesnt ride at the TT.
Doug I remember when only the top 6 were getting replicas, and we were finishing 7th, just made us want it even more......the whole idea of racing is to improve!!! it seems like people just want to stand and wait for everyone else to slow down.
RE: Machine Eligibility Questions. - Tomcat - 13-05-2009
Will Loder Wrote:If Alan were to win with a new lap and race record would you lot still be complaining? He is a 'normal' manx bloke who doesnt ride at the TT.
The short answer is "no" Will, if Alan or anybody else managed to do it without resorting to space shuttle technology or budgets. You didn't find the same complaints being raised when Bob Heath and Bill Swallow were setting the races alight, because the bikes they were using were by and large what anybody with a bit of care and talent could produce in their shed.
It's a big "IF" though.
RE: Machine Eligibility Questions. - Carolynn - 13-05-2009
Tomcat Wrote:Will Loder Wrote:If Alan were to win with a new lap and race record would you lot still be complaining? He is a 'normal' manx bloke who doesnt ride at the TT.
The short answer is "no" Will, if Alan or anybody else managed to do it without resorting to space shuttle technology or budgets. You didn't find the same complaints being raised when Bob Heath and Bill Swallow were setting the races alight, because the bikes they were using were by and large what anybody with a bit of care and talent could produce in their shed.
It's a big "IF" though.
As someone who grew up in the MGP paddock, more specifically in the Classic racing side of the paddock, I remember an awful lot of grumbling about Bob Heath cleaning up, year after year, on his very expensive, Titanium G50's, which were a tool no-one else in the paddock could afford at the time. I'm sure Will can recall the same?!
I'm afraid you can't please all of the people all of the time and there will always be people who don't agree with certain things, whether it be rider or machine eligability.
There are pro's and con's to allowing TT riders into the MGP and I can see points of view on both sides, but, I for one, will be cheering if Alan does do it! ;0)
RE: Machine Eligibility Questions. - cargo - 13-05-2009
At the end of the day a successful Manx Classic race is one when it's a good exciting race with lots of people watching...........if it takes a few TT names and an exotic bike or two to achieve that then so be it.
If we get a crappy race and nobody watching then we all lose.