I have heard that work has been going on at Brandish and Windy Corner, to take away the sharpness of these corners to try and make it safer for racing.
If this is the case, does that mean that previous lap/record times, will now stand for ever on the old course, and the new record times, if broken, in 2007, will be the start of a new era on the mountain circuit, and should be registered as such.
I have been watching the TT since 1979, and have noticed the staightening out of many corners, Quarry Bends and Sign Post Corner to name two.
I cannot see any glory in breaking lap records, when corners etc are being taken away, making the speeds faster through those sections, and less race distance to travel.
If these circuit alterations have taken place, and the 130mph lap record is achieved in 2007, i for one will have a smile on my face.
As a spectator and supporter of the TT, i have noticed over the recent years, that places to watch from are getting less and less, top and bottom of Barragarroo and Sign Post Corner to name just two, i fully understand the safety implications, but i also think that the ACU health and safety, is starting to go over the top, and in the end i believe that people will stop coming to the TT, if this carries on. How many more places to view from will be banned this year?

I have been watching(live in IOM) the TT since the early 1950's, and it is getting much harder to find a decent place to spectate from.
If it's a fine day, there is always the mountain section, but if it is 'iffy' weather, it is a real problem. I agree, people will stop coming to the TT if there is nowhere to watch from.

Rocket Man Wrote:I have heard that work has been going on at Brandish and Windy Corner, to take away the sharpness of these corners to try and make it safer for racing.

The alterations are for road traffic reasons and nothing to do with racing. Brandish was the Island's Accident Black Spot Number 1 for RTA's and Windy Corner Number 3.

Paul

Paul Phillips Wrote:The alterations are for road traffic reasons and nothing to do with racing. Brandish was the Island's Accident Black Spot Number 1 for RTA's and Windy Corner Number 3. Paul

With your reply you have just confirmed that you are a politician Paul - ignore the question, just come out with some waffle and claptrap!

If the TT course was like any other "proper" racetrack, alterations to bends or length would be accurately and publicly measured, and all lap and race records would be frozen, then new records started. It does look like the IoM authorities are continuing to take a supercilious attitude that they can do what they want - the same attitude that led to the loss of World Championship status, or inclusion in any other recognised global or continental racing class. The governing bodies of the TT have since the 70s acted like a small parochial council, and made sure they are Betamax while the rest of the world went VHS!

Whoa, whoa, whoa...we are guests for 4 weeks racing on the Island. The people who live there for the other 48 weeks own the place.
The TT course ISN'T any other race circuit...that's the whole point of it.
One of the points is that being a real road, used every day, it will change, and be changed, to suit the people who use it every day.
If nothing was done, and it got worn out, and the verges fell in, and all the other things that could happen, would we be happy?
The changes were made by the Isle of Man's roads authority, not the ACU, the MMCC or any other entity involved in the racing, and they don't have to ask our permission.
It may be that the changes don't suit as well as might be, but just think of this...if you were to look at all the corners on the TT course...are they all great...no ideas for improvement...they are just corners on public roads, and we have to take 'em or leave 'em.
As far as length, records etc...the winner is the person who finishes first, NOT necessarily the person who put in the fastest lap. The TT is NOT about fastest laps, but about beating all the obstacles...old and new...John McG will have a new challenge this year, and I don't mean 130mph (or finding a bike!) That's what the TT is all about CHALLENGE.
"Always win at the slowest possible speed" Advice from Bob Mac.

Helen - I understand what you are saying, but when men (usually!) started racing, they used roads that were for normal traffic at other times. They still measured the courses so that they were able to tell what the average speed was. If the only statistics that were ever published were that John Mc X lapped the course in XXminutes YY seconds, fair enough - but the time is always equated to the distance, and the speed calculated and announced!
The way it goes on now in the Isle of Man is a complete farce, statistically!
And please nobody start going on about how to measure it (middle of road, racing line and so on) because every "normal" race circuit is measured, and I am sure someone from the F1/FIA/FIM would share the secret as to how they measure Assen, Brands Hatch, Silverstone............

Point taken, and an idea of average speeds is fine. It's just that the point of the exercise...being first home...seems to be lost in this frenzy for 130mph laps or 200 mph top speed at the NW.
Lies, damn lies and statistics!

Lies, damn lies and statitics.

If the trurh is known, all of those who have a vested interest in the TT will never allow the course to be correctly measured, it would flush all the hyped up new records of at least the last ten years straight down the Manx sewers.

Anyone who knows the TT course from 50/60 years ago knows that the current lap records and and a 130mph lap based on the orginal circuit is garbage and unachievable.

Merry Christmas to you too Pete!

For your information, I am not a politician, and I have no knowledge or interest in the subject! I wasn't avoiding the question, in fact I was simply adding some additional information to the topic which the gentleman clearly was not aware of. You in turn used that as an opportunity to have a pop at me! Nice one!

With regards to the circuit length, can you tell me off the top of your head without checking the exact, published measurement of the North West 200 or Ulster Grand Prix? No - of course you can't. It is just that the TT is so important an iconic, we all know the exact published length - how that was actually derived I don't know. I do hope you are so aggressive with the organisers of the other meetings I have mentioned, as their circuits have changed considerably of late, but that doesn't raise a mention. The North West 200 Circuit has actually got longer!

One final point Pete that I have to agree with you on. The TT has been organised in a parochial manner since the 70's, but lately that has changed. Going into the Centenary year, the TT can look forward to it's strongest ever entry list, highest levels of safety precautions, strongest infrastructure and enormous credibility from the motorcycle industry and media. If that's a bad thing in your eyes, then we simply will never agree.

Happy New year to everyone.

Paul

Paul, you make a good point about the length of other circuits, and I watched a science lecture the other day on TV, which showed that you can never measure accurately..it depends how fiely you define the area to be measured..the TT course is infinite...
Anyway, that only supports the fact that speed records are only a diversion...the first person over the line wins.
This topic has been well aired before, and I will only allow it to continue if it does not become a slanging match.

It was the Royal Institution Christmas Lectures, and if you want to find out more, and do your head in trying to figure out how to measure the TT Course accurately (impossible), then read this, and send for the DVD!
In the circumstances, I don't expect to hear any more about re-measuring the course until after the DVD comes out in March!!

http://www.rigb.org/rimain/news/newsdeta...21&lang=EN

Paul - sorry for accusing you of being a politician, but as the closest thing to being the "boss" of the current form of the TT, I expected you to give an answer to the question, not give a "politician's answer" (an oxymoron of course, because politicians NEVER answer a question!) I remind you

Rocket Man Wrote:If this is the case, does that mean that previous lap/record times, will now stand for ever on the old course, and the new record times, if broken, in 2007, will be the start of a new era on the mountain circuit, and should be registered as such?

So a non-political answer would be "Yes" or "No"................which is it?
As for what other non-championship circuits do, I have no interest in them, as they are relatively unimportant to me. I do, however, expect that the most historically important circuit and the races held upon it even now, have distances, lap times and speeds that are verifyable - to within 2 decimal places at least. This would only mean remeasuring to within say a hundred yards - not that difficult. Failure to do so would be an admission that the sizzle has become more important than the sausage - the mantra of anyone in PR, advertising, or the present Blair government!

Correct me if i`m wrong but ...This is still the season of goodwill to all men is it not ???

Would not dare to reply to this post otherswise but i do agree with a great deal of what helen and paul hav posted.

Sittin on the fence ??? no ..not my style ! 8)

cheers,
Stella

As a P.S

Ok so.... roads change slightly, lines change, bikes change, speeds change, conditions change, generations of racers have come and gon. Its surely the guy who crosse`s the line 1st no matter wot who should be remembered as a TT winner around the one and only TT course.

Just my tuppencworth.. 8)

Hey all - there is no ill-will. Adults can disagree - sometimes strongly, but if nothing is said about opinions - sometimes to and from people directly concerned with the races as they are now - then it can become like the Reichstag. Goodwill to all men does not mean rolling over and pretending that everything is perfect!
A New Year gift would be honest and open answers by all those in charge of everything.

Ok fair play.

Just read a bit personal to me but i reckon Pauls a big boy n can look after himself

Happy New Year 2u2 8)

Er... no reply to any of my ps views tho ?

Personally i would be more concerned about the cost of actually going to the TT for the races as thats what has been a major factor for me over the last 20 yrs apart from racing committements on the mainland.So many people have said how i simply wouldn`t believe the changes since i was last there. Certainly it would be a major disapointment re watching at parts around the track, but in these days of insurance etc its got to be a big consideration ...

Whew quite a wee rant this afternoon ...pass the chocs pleez :wink:

Stella - I agree with your comments, but as one who did potter round 30-odd years ago, it is important to me to be able to see how things change. The 250 I had in 1973 was clocked about 5th fastest through the Highlander at 135mph - and yes, I am well aware that I was not brave enough to make it finish 5th!! - and Charlie Williams won it at an average speed of 100.something mph.
It is a fact that speeds will always be compared from one year to the next - otherwise there would be no such thing as a lap or race record, and it is insulting to the achievements of previous years not to qualify changes in the challenge faced.
Whilst it is impossible to properly factor in the fewer bumps, changes in tyres, grippier surfaces and so on - it is perfectly possible to check the distance round the course, and it is dishonest not to do so.
When I was last over, I was horrified at what had been done to the course, even allowing for the needs of modern traffic, because in my view it had been considerably de-skilled. But there again, I am one of those that thinks that motoring safety would be vastly improved if we got rid of all safety belts & airbags and had levers sticking out of the dashboard - because people would drive a car like that much more carefully, concious that they could get hurt!

But they wouldn't, Peter, that's why we get all these nasty accidents on narrow lanes, and the ridiculous term "dangerous road". There is no such thing...only dangerous drivers.

The reason we get all the accidents - on windy lanes, dual-carriageways, motorways et al, is, as you say Oh Mighty Witch, down to the drivers - but if they were not cocooned in their "safety cell", and lulled into the false sense of security that tells them they cannot get hurt, with airbags to the left of them airbags to the right, Side-pasenger impact reinforcement, auto-this and auto-that, they might, just might, concentrate a bit more! if I were a copper and saw a mother with kids standing 'twixt the seats, unbelted, with her turning round to tell them for the fortieth time to sit down and be quiet, I would want the kids taken into care for two weeks, while the mum serves time helping in a Casualty Unit, followed by a Neuro-surgery Unit, followed by a morgue..........Anyway, this has got far enough off-topic for me! :wink:

Hey Guys. i did not mean to start World War 3, when posting this topic
What ever way one looks at it, the improvements to the course over the years, has to benifit the racer, a few tenths of a second, or even more, gained at these sections, which must improve the speed on entering and exiting, these once tight corners, setting aside the bike improvements, ie, brakes, tyres, suspension and engine power, and over 6 laps it all adds up. Just imagine if they took away Governor's Bridge :!: What speeds would be achieved at the Grandstand speed trap :?: Please ACU, forget i ever said that, don't even think about it :!:
I know it is hard to compare, but when i used to speed hill climb, up the narrow twisty hills in Cornwall, one missed gear change, would most probably send you back down the pecking order by at least 2 or 3 places, even though the course distance and the corners always remained the same and still do today, breaking new speed/race records by sometimes 100ths of a second, by man and machine only, and not by drastic course improvements.