veefour Wrote:I cannot believe the authorities are not interested in Shaun or Ian's offers of help with their experience & knowledge, why !!!

Or getting in contact with the Scottish marshals.

To be honest, I think what is needed is a full time, fully qualified and experienced Safety Officer, who would have the technical expertise to assess risk and advise on remedial action.
Knowing about racing is not necessarily the best recommendation for knowing about safety. Having said that, I would expect the person who took the job to confer with riders from all levels to confirm things, and would listen when they pointed out anything they had observed.
At present, with the best will in the world, the people who are carrying these enormous responsibilities have to go to work 5 days a week, and try to fit in these duties in their spare time. Some of the other key personnel should also be full time, paid employees (of whom?). Some of them also made the mistake of assuming everyone under their "command" was doing their jobs assiduously, and there was no mechanism for checking that.
It is truly amazing that an event of the complexity of the TT has been largely run by volunteers for so long. Time for change.
However, I don't believe marshals should be paid. Those who marshal at other international events aren't, nor are first aid personnel at sports events. For some of us, that is our "sport". Having stopped racing many years ago, I do this because I enjoy it, and I feel I am putting something back into the sport.
I may say too, that I treat it every bit as seriously and conscientiously as if I were paid.... as do all the marshals I know.
It always amazes me the number of people with no other race experience who turn up, straight from work, or for their "holidays", and spend their time making sure others are as safe as they can be.
Noone enjoys that awful moment when someone crashes and you have to deal with sometimes horrendous injury or worse, but that is balanced by how good it must feel to know you saved the life of someone like Shaun... without the Hogg medics he would have died, and they were very heartily thanked by Fiona, when she met them.
Over the years bikes have become almost perfect in their preparation and maintenance... organisation must do the same.
Your thoughts are all welcome and interesting. I hope some of those in charge are noting them.

A few years ago I was actually asked by the ACU if I wanted a job at the TT along those basic lines, but I personally felt I was not really qualified to hold a post of high responsibility in the light of the fact that I was otherwise engaged in other TT matters like writing for the programme, paying riders entry fees and showing many of the TT virgins the wonders of this annual event.

Now, I feel that as a long time TT Fan I wish I could have taken up this offer and ploughed back some of my many years experience and knowledge of the TT, the Course and allied subjects when I was considered.

We certainly need independant observers who are qualified and Shaun certainly fits that requirement but even with his experience I would recommend he head a team of similarly qualified people to help in the coming period and hope the organisers of the TT will see the necessity of body such as put forward.

It can only help.

Well have said my bit, and passionate as i am about roadracing feel i have been restrained out of respect for everyone involved.

However its at this stage in this very articulate thread where i`m going to bite my tongue, and just hope that someone, somewhere is reading and digesting.

Nuff said from me, and thankyou everyone.

I think the offers of help are great. Unfortunately I don't believe they will help with the situation we are all talking about. The sort of organisation required for an event like the TT needs a full year to get everything together. The person needed for the saftey part needs to be here full time to deal with communication with all parties and attend meetings. I don't believe this can be done by e-mail or by the odd phone call. There is no subsitute for meeting people face to face when something as important as safety is involved. I am sure that Shaun with all of his good intentions will not be able to make every meeting or sub meeting that needs to take place the whole year round. But what I am sure of is that there would be no harm in them asking for his input into the process, as I believe riders like Shaun have a major role to play in the future of the TT. A quick shuftie, for the need of a better word, round the course a few weeks before doesn't really help. It produces panic and causes major rushing round to fix things which then also produces pressure and mistakes, which is what we are all trying to avoid. They need to be fixed or planned well in advance. This is why I do actually think if someone is chosen they have to be an island resident with the qualifications to do this, and there are many who have. Why Shaun is so against this I don't know.

I totally agree with what Helen has pointed out, an experienced qualified person who knows all about the area of risk assessment is what is required. Even if it is a consultation position it can only help. The problem for this year especially is the short time period from now until the first practice session. But something has to happen, and I am worried about rushing things and further mistakes being made.

Just one point, alot of the medics that attend the TT are paid. Just as the cover of the Doctors at Jurby are paid, the ones for the TT and other major events are also paid for attending the races and practices. It might not be alot, but I think this is also a cost that is increasing year on year. Maybe one of the orgainsers can confirm the actual amounts? It might even only be for insurance purposes but payments are made. Don't know if the volunteers from Hogg get it but I am sure there is a large donation, and so there should be.

This is all a sideline to the real fact that change needs to be made and there is not alot of time to implement it.

I am sorry Shaun if I sound a little negative about your offer of help but I am sure you can see where I am coming from. I really do believe that riders like yourself have so so much to offer organisers of not only the TT but other events like the Manx GP.

SJA, Red Cross and Hogg ambulance organisations get donations, the SJA volunteers dont get paid and as far as i'm aware neither do the Hogg or Red Cross

Hi guys

I have just been having a read through this thread for the first time in detail. It wouldn't be appropriate for me to comment about what happened last year, however there are a few small things I have picked up from this thread I think I can comment on to help clear them up.

Before I say anything further, having read the various statements from those who witnessed this incident, I can't begin to tell you how much admiration I have for those who dealt with the aftermath. I also continue to extend my deepest sympathy to everyone who was involved in, and affected by, the tragic accident as I know do all my colleagues.

The first point I would like to address, is the one where people are asking what is being done or will be done by the organisers ahead of future TT's.

Following TT 2007 the Isle of Man Government instigated a review into the policy and operating practices for the event. This process has involved extensive consultation with the relative parties and has involved amongst others senior officers from the Isle of Man constabulary, experienced HSAW individuals, qualified risk assessors, race organisers from other motorcycle sport events not to mention the experience of a multitude of experienced former and current TT competitors, plus representatives of many other groups and organisations.

Part of this process has included a comprehensive analysis of the TT course which has resulted in further definition of restricted and prohibited areas. This does not mean that draconian restrictions will all of a sudden be implemented for spectators, but rather clearer marking of those areas in place, and concise communication of them for both spectator and marshal. Spectating information will be extensively detailed in the TT Programme and on line ahead of this years event.

The course set-up contract, which is new for 2008, includes responsibility for the marking, signing and frequent checking of all prohibited and restricted areas around the circuit against an auditable and measurable process.

A comprehensive reporting procedure between marshals, sector marshals and race control has been instigated via the Tetra radio system to ensure that all prohibited and restricted areas are clear of spectators while racing takes place. The system will also produce a comprehensive audit trail.

There are a few other points I would like to address if I may. The first relates to Shaun's comments, as he is giving the impression that I didn't respond to his e-mail offer of assistance. Shaun; I'm not sure as to why you think that, because I did reply which you acknowledged and still have that reply on record again if you would like me to send it again? You know me well enough to know I always respond to correspondence quickly and thoroughly.

The idea that competitors are not consulted when circuit safety is considered is incorrect, and in fact the opposite is the case. Solo and sidecar riders/drivers, past and present are consulted regularly by the race organisers regarding rider safety and some are involved officially in the relative working groups.

I feel as though I must say that rider safety and spectator safety are two different albeit equally important aspects of the management of the TT, and massive investment – financial, time and personnel – is being invested in both.

Harvey – you sent me the e-mail about the Scottish marshals and I forwarded it to the relative body. I don't know why it was or wasn't dealt with. What I can say about marshal recruitment and retention is this is something we have collectively been working on for a number of years, and one particular key part of this is finally nearing completion, and we will be able to make an announcement soon which I feel will assist in this area no end.

There is no doubting that this is a difficult time for so many people, and to go back to my first point, the key part is the sympathy we all must offer to those effected by the incident and the admiration we all must show to those who dealt with it. At the same time, I know everyone involved in the TT is committed to its future, acknowledging that 21st Century sensitivities require an organisational structure and an accredited race organiser working together in an professional, auditable and defensible manner, something many people have worked tirelessly and professionally to deliver in time for TT 2008 for many, many months.

Best wishes

Paul

Thank you for that, Paul.
I feel a whole lot more confident about the future tonight, as you have answered a couple of the questions I have been losing sleep over.

Would like to add my thanks also.

Being totally honest could not believe that with the distinct lack of postings on other roadracing forums that this thread had not been brought to your attention.

Look forward to seeing the fruits of your posting for the good of the TT `s future.

Stella Wrote:Being totally honest could not believe that with the distinct lack of postings on other roadracing forums that this thread had not been brought to your attention.

Not at all. I've just not felt the need to reply to date together with having a tooth out (big deal for a wimp like me) and celebrating our little Molly's first birthday yesterday which was a very important day for Julie and I.

Paul

Quote from Paul Phillips above post

Harvey – you sent me the e-mail about the Scottish marshals and I forwarded it to the relative body. I don't know why it was or wasn't dealt with. What I can say about marshal recruitment and retention is this is something we have collectively been working on for a number of years, and one particular key part of this is finally nearing completion, and we will be able to make an announcement soon which I feel will assist in this area no end.


So Paul, as the main man from the IOM Tourist dept ( racing devision)
You replied to this thread, and made the above comment, BUT DID YOU EVEN EMAIL OR PHONE THE CONTRACTED ORGANISERS TO FIND OUT THE AWNSER FROM THEM??????

IT is a safety issue!!!!!! and the Isle of man makes a lot of money from this event, about time more buck passing stopped please Paul, the tourist board makes a fortune out of this event, they pay your wages, and you represent them well, untill posts like the above one, YOU HAVE JUST ALL BUT SAID< ITS NOT OUR FAULT THE SCOTTISH MARSHALLS HAVE NOT BEEN CONTACTED--- EXSCUSE ME PLEASE ONE AND ALL , bull locks!

As far as my post about NO CONTACT- I did offer! I did notice and tell you about the fences missing-I was prepared to MOVE to the IOM to do this but, YOU told me in an email that I would need to live there first so we could discuss it, Well mate, I am not going to move my daughter and wife to the iom on a gamble only, I made a very serious offer, and got a very light reply!

Post it all up if you want to!

I like you personally Paul, you HAVE been good for the sport.


WHY NO IOM PERSON AS SAFETY

To many people know to many people over there in the buisness world It should be an outsider with NO REAL benifit to act in a low level way

I'm not passing the buck at all Shaun. I was simply answering Harvey's question honestly, having just read it for the first time about an hour ago. I don't know the answer right now, but I will find out why the contact wasn't developed.

Paul

Totally appreciate that paul and i more than anyone knows just how important family are.

However i have openly encouraged close friends to race at the TT and its their interests i have at heart side by side with the people on the ground, at the front line, ie the marshalls.

yours in sport,
Stella

Paul Phillips Wrote:I'm not passing the buck at all Shaun. I was simply answering Harvey's question honestly, having just read it for the first time about an hour ago. I don't know the answer right now, but I will find out why the contact wasn't developed.

Paul

Perhaps my choice of words, was a little strong eh!

Please post a reply for us, so we can also see just how serious this contract is

http://www.visordown.com/forum/forummess...303&V=2&SP=

In the light of what we have been discussing I find this very, very disturbing. ACU... are you going to look into this?

Lets stop squabbling among ourselves folks, and start working together to ensure the highest possible standards ... everywhere.

As marshals we need to take a lead on some things, and OFFER to help, not complain if we are never asked for our information and advice.

I'd like to get the ball rolling by saying it is essential that marshals are placed on the Tromode Road side of the course at the bottom of Bray, as otherwise there is no way of controlling spectators (including the usual one or two with a drink in).While my boringly repeated story of the fat guy on the wall may be mildly amusing, my concerns were not. (Could be one trained and one newbie)

Bikes often end up there if they retire and this would remove the need for a marshal to cross too.

Other marshals... any worries, thoughts, constructive ideas... come on... don't be shy.

Marshals are the lynchpin of the TT... stand up a nd be counted.

As the current advertising for commissioners says on Manx Radio "If you don't stand, you won't be heard.".

Be positive folks, there are thousands and thousands of people who want this to work, lets try to harness all that enthusiasm and brain power and sort it.

Regarding above post on Visordown, that really does begger belief !

One other point I would like to make as a result of the inquest – and I touched on it in my previous posting - is about attitudes. As a great TT enthusiast for most of my life (though sadly not any more), I have always accepted that it is potentially a very dangerous sport and that accidents will always happen.

But one thing I have never been comfortable with is the way that deaths and serious injuries have for so long been treated so lightly and in such a ‘matter of fact’ manner by race officials, and in many cases by the media. Manx Radio’s commentaries have generally been superb through the years, but so many times in the past I have squirmed during a race commentary when a fatality during practice week, for example, has been completely ignored – treated as if it had never happened. The rider concerned has simply been listed as a non-starter. Some may argue that this is the best way to treat such a situation as ‘the show must go on’, but I don’t agree. In fairness, things have improved in this regard over recent years, with proper tributes being paid to the unfortunate riders.

I was absolutely disgusted (though not in the least surprised) to read about the ACU and race officials slapping themselves on the back and congratulating themselves on doing such a wonderful job in a meeting held just 4 hours after the horrendous accident at the 26th Milestone – a large part of which we now know was caused by the failings of some of those very people. They clearly would have known the essential details about what had happened when they held this meeting. Yet at the very same time as three devastated families were trying to come to terms with their tragic losses, one person was fighting for her life and one was being treated for serious injuries, the people in charge basically seemed to be saying to each other ‘Jolly good show chaps, let’s have another gin and tonic’. The words used by the Coroner to describe their attitides were 'crass', 'insensitive', 'offensive' and 'smug' - and I think he got that spot-on.

I am NOT saying that I want the TT to be stopped, but what I do want to see is a complete change in the attitudes of those in charge. One thing that will be essential from now on is top-class communication at all levels amongst those in authority. That alone will have to see a radical change in the attitudes of the ACU officials whose communication skills over the years have been consistently appalling (never more evident than during the TT Course Licence debacle). Now that they are back in charge of this year’s TT, that simply HAS to change.

I've largely stayed out of this so far, since I didn't have enough knowledge of the facts and circumstances and hence nothing constructive to contribute.

However, and having read the Coroner's Report, one thing leapt out at me.

This was the "detailed" description of the Prohibited Area at the 26th.

Leaving aside the obvious howler about "on the right hand side", reference is made to the layby "30 yards from the corner".

Hell of a lot further than that, surely?

Anyway, and notwithstanding the opinions expressed about the Coroner's "overdoing it", in my opinion Mr Moyle has produced a most valuable piece of work.

If this is not effective as the most important "wake-up call" in road racing history, and accepted as such by all concerned, there's no hope for any of us, I'm afraid.

Finally, and to David Griffiths, human nature being what it is, history and experience tells me that attitudes cannot be changed by decree.

Except in very rare circumstances, the only answer is to change the personnel.

Larry Devlin

[quote=thewitch]

I'd like to get the ball rolling by saying it is essential that marshals are placed on the Tromode Road side of the course at the bottom of Bray, as otherwise there is no way of controlling spectators (including the usual one or two with a drink in).While my boringly repeated story of the fat guy on the wall may be mildly amusing, my concerns were not. (Could be one trained and one newbie)

Bikes often end up there if they retire and this would remove the need for a marshal to cross too.

I witnessed such an incident in that spot in 2006. Scary.
Also, I think paying marshals, although they are worth their weight in gold, may have an effect on insurance, etc as I guess they would no longer have the 'volunteer' status and become employees. Am I correct in thinking that.

The "paid"/"not paid" thing actually makes no difference if you do something wrong or stupid or do not do something you should have, and a disaster occurs as a result. In law you would still be held responsible.
If you do what you have been trained and instructed to do, and still something terrible happens, you are not culpable... paid or otherwise.
However, there would be an unbelieveable amount of paperwork recording who worked and when, tax implications of dealings with people from off-island etc etc.
I know from doing work for organisations in Scotland, the tax people there get in a real twist. They don't seem to know their own rules.
Perhaps a way of having your marshal's credentials signed by the DSM might entitle you to something.. eg, discount on the next trip on IOMSP. The more sessions covered, the more reward.