Here's a perfect example of how a substantial discount on the boat fare could mean a marshal coming across???

Precisely! But, what may not be widely known is that although the TT is full price no matter what, there are deals to be had travelling to the Manx.

I'd originally planned to come on the thursday of practice week and go home monday morning after race week (wanted to see the classic 2 day trial). I was quoted £305 for me and the c*r. Ouch...

So, I did a bit of research and found that by travelling on the Tuesday evening boat and going home on the monday afternoon it was down to £198, which more than covers a couple of extra days in the digs

I found this out by accident. How many more people might come over earlier or come at all if they knew about this?

Steam Packet - Mr Earnshaw, c'mon get yer digits extracted. Don't you WANT people to come?

I've been think about the whole MV/Patton thing and something has occured to me...............

Is complaining about the arrival of the MV/Patton at the Manx not a bit like complaining about say John McGuinness turning up at the TT with a works Honda ?.
I know there a problem with people not getting reps and maybe there is a solution to that I don't know but the bike is within the rules it's from within the era and it will sound lovely so to be brutaly honest the more the merrier

Anyone got a works Norton thay want a fat old guy to ride ?

Steve Linsdell is at No:3 on the Paton and Gary Johnson at No:4 on the MV, so when they start together I hope Charlie Lambert STFU and lets everyone hear it on t'radio

Tomcat Wrote:Steve Linsdell said a little while ago, in a very frank and open interview, that he regarded budget as just one tool for winning a race and the likes of buying a Paton was an option open to anyone with the money - if they didn't like it, well, tough, that was racing. My view is that may work in professional racing, BSB or TT and so forth, but the Manx isn't the place for it. This is the event where there is no prize money and riders foot all the bills themselves. It's an amateurs event and I believe rewarding the pros to the detriment of the true amateurs will result in more of them (us) abandoning the event, which is already short of entries.

I would like to point out that my dad is not, by any sense of the word a 'professional' rider - and nor is a factory supported TT rider who is 'pot hunting' at the Manx as some people seem to think.

He has simply proved himself at both Manx and TT with years of good results on privately entered machines - and that means that he has earned his ride on the Paton. He is not paid to ride it, he simply loves classic bikes and the Isle of Man. My parents cover the expenses of transport, entries and looking after the bikes out of their own hard earned cash - whilst also supporting both myself and my brother with our racing.

If you remember my dad started on vintage and classic machinery - becoming vintage club champion numerous times on home built Royal Enfields in the 70's. He in fact made his Isle of Man debut in 1981 on (the home built) Seeley Enfield 500 that I ride today. He came second in the newcomers. If you want the best machinery you (either have to be very rich!) or have to have earned it. This is the same in any sport, at any level and there is no reason that the Manx should be any different.

You should not ride the island to get a replica, you should ride to stretch yourself and make yourself good enough to get that replica. My dad, along with the majority of the other top runners, earned their rides from years of supporting road racing all over. The Manx is not an amateur event. It is amateur and classic. There is no corresponding race at the TT and every rider and machine entered is within the rules that applies to all in that race. Do you think if all the top runners dropped out, loads more riders would come crawling out of the woodwork? I don't, and if they did they aren't the people who should be riding the island. This would detract from the event and the spectacle.

My dad has always said that everyone is there to be beaten - the bigger they are, the sweeter the victory. Sorry this is so long, but I felt it needed saying.

David Linsdell

cargo Wrote:Is complaining about the arrival of the MV/Patton at the Manx not a bit like complaining about say John McGuinness turning up at the TT with a works Honda ?.
I know there a problem with people not getting reps and maybe there is a solution to that I don't know but the bike is within the rules it's from within the era and it will sound lovely so to be brutaly honest the more the merrier

I disagree!

David Linsdell Wrote:

Tomcat Wrote:Steve Linsdell said a little while ago, in a very frank and open interview, that he regarded budget as just one tool for winning a race and the likes of buying a Paton was an option open to anyone with the money - if they didn't like it, well, tough, that was racing. My view is that may work in professional racing, BSB or TT and so forth, but the Manx isn't the place for it. This is the event where there is no prize money and riders foot all the bills themselves. It's an amateurs event and I believe rewarding the pros to the detriment of the true amateurs will result in more of them (us) abandoning the event, which is already short of entries.

I would like to point out that my dad is not, by any sense of the word a 'professional' rider - and nor is a factory supported TT rider who is 'pot hunting' at the Manx as some people seem to think.

He has simply proved himself at both Manx and TT with years of good results on privately entered machines - and that means that he has earned his ride on the Paton. He is not paid to ride it, he simply loves classic bikes and the Isle of Man. My parents cover the expenses of transport, entries and looking after the bikes out of their own hard earned cash - whilst also supporting both myself and my brother with our racing.

If you remember my dad started on vintage and classic machinery - becoming vintage club champion numerous times on home built Royal Enfields in the 70's. He in fact made his Isle of Man debut in 1981 on (the home built) Seeley Enfield 500 that I ride today. He came second in the newcomers. If you want the best machinery you (either have to be very rich!) or have to have earned it. This is the same in any sport, at any level and there is no reason that the Manx should be any different.

You should not ride the island to get a replica, you should ride to stretch yourself and make yourself good enough to get that replica. My dad, along with the majority of the other top runners, earned their rides from years of supporting road racing all over. The Manx is not an amateur event. It is amateur and classic. There is no corresponding race at the TT and every rider and machine entered is within the rules that applies to all in that race. Do you think if all the top runners dropped out, loads more riders would come crawling out of the woodwork? I don't, and if they did they aren't the people who should be riding the island. This would detract from the event and the spectacle.

My dad has always said that everyone is there to be beaten - the bigger they are, the sweeter the victory. Sorry this is so long, but I felt it needed saying.

David Linsdell

I disagree with this too....

The Patons and MV will see the end of the MGP.
Just as you can have an opinion, others can also

David, thanks for your frank reply. Don't get me wrong, I wasnt criticising Steve - I have great regard for the guy as it happens and well remember both his vintage exploits and the unique GTR. But that's not to say I agree with his POV on racing, and my point is really that the TT and the Manx are essentially different events, at different levels. With different licence requirements and different approaches to entry fees and prize money.

You'll never enforce the "spirit" of an event but I do believe allowing those with big budgets to buy their way to the front will discourage the amateurs, the "holiday racers" like me who have supported the races over 20 years and no longer want to spend thousands to come over and see the big spenders disappear on the straights with no hope of a Rep when somebody sets a new lap record on a Paton, or MV, or works Honda-4, or whatever other replica exotica they've thrown money at.

But like I said, there's no way to restrict the bikes that I can see, so you're left with excluding the TT pot-hunters and maybe making the awarding of Reps a bit fairer with respect to the megabucks jockeys.

You may feel you can have an exciting race with a dozen big-budget stars on exotic machines, I don't, and I'm not alone in that. Entry fields are already shrinking. Discourage more holiday racers at your peril.

I think here is a really good debate about the pro's and also the cons about bringing top names to an event. Not only riders but also machines. There are the stalwarts of the Manx who believe that the Manx is a pure road race untainted by the professionals and only there for the real true amateur of the racing world. It is their chance of glory pitting themselves and their machines against the greatest (in my opinion) road race in the world.

But I remember the vans and tents being there a few years ago when the thoughts of getting separate tent things that come from the side of your van was just a dream and the only people to have them was the professional teams. Now you can walk round the paddock and nearly everyone has one. It is not only the vans and tents that change, it is the people that come here and the people that ride here. Not only this but the machinery also has changed. It might be for the better it might be for the worse, but change happens.

Whether you think you should be put in a separate class because someone turns up on a machine that you think shouldn't qualify is really neither here or there, the fact is it has turned up and has been accepted.

You could, instead of having classes based on the machinery, have classes based on how much you have spent... would this be fairer? I don't think alot of people would agree with that. As for the times, well if you increase the % of the winners times then would the rep be worth having? I think not. But then if you get someone like Ollie who stormed it and ran away with the race is that fair on the people who came outside the times for the reps? I think not also. Maye its time to look at reps based on the % time over the last few years. You could set maybe Silver for the top ten and bronze for the next 10. But this would have problems in entry sizes.

This is difficult and will be for many many years ahead, but I do believe that a professional rider can get more out of a machine than a non professional rider, so maybe the classes should be based on the riders and machines. Maybe this would help?

It is going to go on for years but I love this debate, and it is happening with the greatest of respect for everyones views. Well done ...........

Good post David

Anyway:

You dont need to buy a Paton, MV, Super Manx/G50 to have a lot of horsepower! When my dad rode Dave Nourish's weslakes we regularly got through the pit lane speed trap at over 124mph, which is better than any single and more than comparible with a Paton. I'm not at liberty to disclose how much power we had then but it was more than enough to lap at 105mph prior to the changes to windy corner and brandish!

You dont need horsepower to do a fast lap! The fastest lap my dad did on the Greeves was 98.96MPH which was in 1997, at that time it produced 33BHP on a good day, if you dont believe me I can show you the graphs! He also did 99.99mph on an almost standard mkIII seeley G50 and 98.6mph on a seeley goldstar with a 4 speed gearbox! I dare say all these lap times would be good enough to get a replica on any year in the history of the classic manx grand prix.

I still cannot understand why people think the replica rules should be changed, it is an award to prove that you lapped within a certain percentage of the winner of the race in those conditions on that day, if you changed the way it was allocated you might as well call it something else. If you only gave silver reps to the top 25% only 9 people would have won them last year whilst 14 managed to with the current rules! In 2005 it was relatively easy to win a replica in 2008 it was more difficult in 1996 even harder! It's swings and round abouts!

One Point in all this which i have mentioned before. The tourist board subsidise the manx to the tune of covering nearly half the entry fee. I for one think they should change the rep ruling, but if by getting over the top riders and machines helps the tourist board justify the sponsorship then so be it. Without their money who could afford over £400 per race entry fee, not many.

Last year if you had put everyone on exactly the same bike the results would have been the same - it is the rider that makes the difference. The classic Manx is not and never will be a solely amateur event - it is the premier classic race in the world. The last couple of years at CRMC Lee Gourlay has ridden a paton in the IHRO races as well as his Manx in the club races. The lap times are comparable - on most occasions he goes faster on the Manx. Look it up. Alan Oversby lapped at 108 mph on his Manx - should we ban him? As for "holiday racers" having no chance - if you think my dad is a professional rider you should see the trouble me and Olie have just to get him out for a race that isn't the Manx!

I stand by what I said - everyone is there to be beaten. The rules should not be changed because some people can not win a replica - that would diminish the achievement in winning one. This wouldn't happen in any other sporting event at any level and I don't see why the Manx is any different. We would get to a point where everyone won a replica and they would simply become a finishers medal.

Entries were decreasing anyway - simply due to the people who raced these bikes in the day are getting older and retiring. If you banned the top runners no-one else would rush in to take their place - you would just decrease the field by another 5 or so. A way to up entries would to be to let in all of the group two machines or establish a 750cc class. A rider I race with was turned down a ride on his Honda 4 cylinder machine that he rides in CRMC group two. The same bike that he rode in the 1981 newcomers. They said it had 'no classic interest'. Letting people like this in would be a way to up the entries.

David Linsdell

David Linsdell Wrote:Last year if you had put everyone on exactly the same bike the results would have been the same - it is the rider that makes the difference.
David Linsdell

I definately disagree with this comment David and I am surprise that, as a rider, you can make this statement.

Yes the rider makes a great deal of difference, but all on the same machinery giving the same result, what rubbish.

I now must chime in here... and give my view point. Especially since my bike is in the Senior Classic class, and this is my first time having my bike raced on the IOM.... So that makes me a newbie, and a Yank newbie as well..! Luckily I have a talented rider with lots of TT experience...!! But to the point, I am just a poor bloke living in California...with the same love of bikes and racing we all have. And it has cost me thousands of dollars just to get my bike up to IOM "specs" and get it to the Island... I have no sponsorship, and have paid dearly just to be a (small) part of the MGP experience.

Now hear this.. and hear it well....

IT WOULD NOT BE THE SAME RACE IF THE FAST GUYS AND THE FAST BIKES WERE NOT THERE..!! TO BE ABLE TO SAY WE COMPETED WITH THE BEST OF THE BEST IS WORTH IT TO ME..!! If we get a replica it is because we earned it..!!

Now, being this is a first for me, just finsihing is a great accomplishment (on my first try...). I bow to the Great Ones, and welcome any assistance a newbie like me may be offered...

I really feel this is a race against the Island, and not each other... it is how each rider attacks the TT Course and ends up with their finishing times...

I also know that to finish first, first one has to finish, and the TT Course is famous for bikes not up to that task..!!!

Please guys, feel free to seek me out and say hello... and AFTER the Monday race, have a pint with us and tell tall tales..!!!

Cheers..!!!

Ron - 7 days until first practice..!!

Kenny Wrote:I definately disagree with this comment David and I am surprise that, as a rider, you can make this statement.

Yes the rider makes a great deal of difference, but all on the same machinery giving the same result, what rubbish.

Of course the bike makes a lot of difference (although a good Manx is easily capable of lapping as fast as a Paton) - but the front runners have earned their bikes through their talent around the island. Do you not think that if everyone had been on the same machine that Ryan Farquar would not have won that race?

As for the Patons' and MVs ruining the Manx - the bikes at the front have always been superior. No one complained when the trick Manx's were dominating the classic scene (Which they still do on the short circuits).

I seem to remember you stating that everyone is allowed an opinion - 'What rubbish' says to me that everyone is allowed an opinion so long as it is the same as yours.

David Linsdell

Gstarron Wrote:Now hear this.. and hear it well....

IT WOULD NOT BE THE SAME RACE IF THE FAST GUYS AND THE FAST BIKES WERE NOT THERE..!! TO BE ABLE TO SAY WE COMPETED WITH THE BEST OF THE BEST IS WORTH IT TO ME..!! If we get a replica it is because we earned it..!!

What I've been trying to say, good post.

David Linsdell Wrote:

Kenny Wrote:I definately disagree with this comment David and I am surprise that, as a rider, you can make this statement.

Yes the rider makes a great deal of difference, but all on the same machinery giving the same result, what rubbish.

Of course the bike makes a lot of difference (although a good Manx is easily capable of lapping as fast as a Paton) - but the front runners have earned their bikes through their talent around the island. Do you not think that if everyone had been on the same machine that Ryan Farquar would not have won that race?

As for the Patons' and MVs ruining the Manx - the bikes at the front have always been superior. No one complained when the trick Manx's were dominating the classic scene (Which they still do on the short circuits).

I seem to remember you stating that everyone is allowed an opinion - 'What rubbish' says to me that everyone is allowed an opinion so long as it is the same as yours.

David Linsdell

That IS my opinion that your statement is rubbish

Kenny Wrote:

David Linsdell Wrote:

Kenny Wrote:I definately disagree with this comment David and I am surprise that, as a rider, you can make this statement.

Yes the rider makes a great deal of difference, but all on the same machinery giving the same result, what rubbish.

Of course the bike makes a lot of difference (although a good Manx is easily capable of lapping as fast as a Paton) - but the front runners have earned their bikes through their talent around the island. Do you not think that if everyone had been on the same machine that Ryan Farquar would not have won that race?

As for the Patons' and MVs ruining the Manx - the bikes at the front have always been superior. No one complained when the trick Manx's were dominating the classic scene (Which they still do on the short circuits).

I seem to remember you stating that everyone is allowed an opinion - 'What rubbish' says to me that everyone is allowed an opinion so long as it is the same as yours.

David Linsdell

That IS my opinion that your statement is rubbish

Constructive. I am going to agree to disagree from now on - I can see neither of our opinions are going to change so lets not have an argument.

Please keep this thread as polite and civilised as it has been up until now. All opinions are valid, and mud slinging is not on.

Now now boys put those claws away.... it was all good up until now. Passion is sometimes a great thing but it can also be such a destructive force.

The greater the passion the greater the differences of those that are passionate.