In AMA racing in the sixties and seventies they operated a selling plate rule. The winning bike could be bought for $xxxxx with the engine still hot!

I don't think many people would want their valued machine to be sold under them, but perhaps a limit on the insured value or something of that order to discourage overspending. Or perhaps replica's must have been sold of the machines in question for say £30,000 maximum value?

Will Loder Wrote:A rider I know was told that he could not count a result gained in the Mallory Park plum pudding meeting towards his TT course licence as the ACU see this as a "Fun Event". Despite the fact that you can count it towards moving from novice to clubman and clubman to national......................Explain that one to me?

Will, when the ACU first brought out the Mountain Course Licence, an enquiry was made of their office as to whether Irish National Road Races would count towards it.

The answer was "No".

Given that level of intelligence and awareness, just what chance would anyone have of solving the Mallory Plum Pudding mystery??

Just thought I would add my 2p worth - I am in general agreement with Tomcat and Barry. What riles me is not the fact that we have Patons, Hondas etc comepting in the classic races but the 120mph + TT stars who are riding these machines. The debate on this thread has been brilliant and we have had some input from current classic racers, which is important - although I have never ridden the Manx so that's not the reason for my comments above.

I don't think that banning MVs, Patons etc can be the answer, otherwise we could end up on the slippery slope of 'what is a classic bike and what is not.' That said, and as has been pointed out already by many people, some of the 'classic' bikes lining up on Saturday evening practice may have been built in the last few years.

To my knowledge the rule already exists that if you win an MGP, you can't compete in the Manx again (unless in a classic race.) I would support a similar rule excluding TT riders, but would be wary of suggesting an arbitrary exclusion limit (e.g. past 2 years, past 3 years etc.) There are people better qualified than me to do that.

If you're good enough to ride the TT, then ride it. Don't ride the Manx. Obviously there is no classic race at the TT, and the point has been made that the Senior Classic is the premier classic event in the UK, if not the world. In my opinion that should be tough for the TT boys.

Clearly machine specification is critical, but then so is the rider. If Joe Bloggs' best ever lap in the Senior Classic is 95mph and someone gives him a Paton for the fortnight, I don't believe he would be firing out 108mph laps every time. Multis are exciting for spectators and, of course, have to pit as well. I for one enjoy seeing them out there but worry that in 5 years time the Senior Classic will be a who's who of Superbike riders on Patons, MVs etc uness something is done.

What I sense from this thread and speaking to people generally is that the issue roughly boils down to whether you consider the Manx to be an amateur event, or a chance to get the best classic bike and the best classic rider. I believe it to be the former. Perhaps the answer is a classic race at the TT?!

In answer to Will's question:

If Ryan Farquar bought a Paton and a 350 Honda with his own money would people still object to him being there?

Yes.

Manx Badger Wrote:Just thought I would add my 2p worth - I am in general agreement with Tomcat and Barry. What riles me is not the fact that we have Patons, Hondas etc comepting in the classic races but the 120mph + TT stars who are riding these machines. The debate on this thread has been brilliant and we have had some input from current classic racers, which is important - although I have never ridden the Manx so that's not the reason for my comments above.

I don't think that banning MVs, Patons etc can be the answer, otherwise we could end up on the slippery slope of 'what is a classic bike and what is not.' That said, and as has been pointed out already by many people, some of the 'classic' bikes lining up on Saturday evening practice may have been built in the last few years.

To my knowledge the rule already exists that if you win an MGP, you can't compete in the Manx again (unless in a classic race.) I would support a similar rule excluding TT riders, but would be wary of suggesting an arbitrary exclusion limit (e.g. past 2 years, past 3 years etc.) There are people better qualified than me to do that.

If you're good enough to ride the TT, then ride it. Don't ride the Manx. Obviously there is no classic race at the TT, and the point has been made that the Senior Classic is the premier classic event in the UK, if not the world. In my opinion that should be tough for the TT boys.

Clearly machine specification is critical, but then so is the rider. If Joe Bloggs' best ever lap in the Senior Classic is 95mph and someone gives him a Paton for the fortnight, I don't believe he would be firing out 108mph laps every time. Multis are exciting for spectators and, of course, have to pit as well. I for one enjoy seeing them out there but worry that in 5 years time the Senior Classic will be a who's who of Superbike riders on Patons, MVs etc uness something is done.

What I sense from this thread and speaking to people generally is that the issue roughly boils down to whether you consider the Manx to be an amateur event, or a chance to get the best classic bike and the best classic rider. I believe it to be the former. Perhaps the answer is a classic race at the TT?!

In answer to Will's question:

If Ryan Farquar bought a Paton and a 350 Honda with his own money would people still object to him being there?

Yes.

Good well thought out answer.

The crux of the matter seems to be two fold, the amount of money the machines at the front cost, and for some objection to any recent fast TT rider at the Manx, on any machine including Classic.

The problem is that the Classic is open to all, who hold a TT course licence and appropriate race Licence, and this has been the case for some time. If their entry is accepted then they are just as eligible to ride as any-one else, and should not be made to feel so very unwelcome.

T-M, I would hazard a guess that any of the available "new" replicas cost at least £30K , and for a trick competitive one considerably more than that nowadays, including the G50's and Manx's, so to restrict to a price will probably rule out Freds bikes at least, (assuming he returns in the future) and not just the Patons and MV.

A Classic race at the TT would probably be an impossibility due to practice session restrictions, the reason given for dropping some of the other classes in the past.
However if this was to happen it would be likely that many of the faster runners would move, not just the TT guys, and therefore the field would surely be more depleted than it is now at the Manx?

With the need to compete and obtain six signatures for the Manx in order to ride at all, to meet the course licence requirement, some of the mid to end field runners may naturally drop off anyway, as some Classic riders particularly find it more difficult to ride the short circuits early or late season. So I wonder what kind of field that would leave us with in the future?

I still believe there is room for everyone, but then I am a little biased admittedly.

Regards to all.

A Classic race at the TT would stop the complaints over the proffessional riders, but it would also almost certainly kill the classic races at the manx! As many of the top classic riders would want to compete at the blue riband event. In the same way that many top modern riders by pass the manx and go straight to the TT.

Surely preserving the classic race at the manx is more important!

Although they complain about them being there, I think a lot of classic riders enjoy the "name dropping" element of competing against the best road racers in the world, surely thats part of the excitment, it is for me!

Will Loder Wrote:A Classic race at the TT would stop the complaints over the proffessional riders, but it would also almost certainly kill the classic races at the manx! As many of the top classic riders would want to compete at the blue riband event. In the same way that many top modern riders by pass the manx and go straight to the TT.

Surely preserving the classic race at the manx is more important!

Although they complain about them being there, I think a lot of classic riders enjoy the "name dropping" element of competing against the best road racers in the world, surely thats part of the excitment, it is for me!

I agree with this. It's better to lose to the best than it is to compete in a race with no competition. My dad didn't ride his 400 at the TT on a number of occasions when there was no competition - because he didn't want the easy victory.

I wonder (too young to remember), did the people have such a problem when Joey rode the classic races? Because he was the BEST on the best machinery.

David Linsdell

I can only just remember Joey riding (was about 5 years old then), but I dont think there was a problem with it.......

I also don't remember much complaint about Bob Jackson riding at the manx and he was every bit as likely to win a TT as Ryan Farquar is.........

If I remember correctly people were hoping these riders could break the strangle hold that Bill and Bob had the Manx Classic races in by that stage.

As I've said before Bob Heath and Bill Swallow were TT riders, they even raced their classic bikes at the TT! How much of an advantage is that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Derek Whalley rode at the TT, Chris McGahn rides at the TT, Roy Richardson has done one (I think), your Dad rides at the TT the list is endless. Nobody is complaining about Paul Dobbs doing the Manx (for example) and he rides at the TT every year, i'm guessing that's purely because he is unlikely to win, despite being a very good rider.

I also still maintain that the times the likes of Ryan are putting in are not unbeatable. Bill Swallow did 107mph in the singles TT about 10 years ago on a much less developed 90mm bore Petty Manx Norton.

having read through all this i may just may have found what most seem to want.a level playing field.yes?well you never going to get it.unless you go back to junior school where egg and spoon races are banned..you could do what suzuki do with the gsxr cup.all the same machines and u draw by lot which one u get.it seems to be about getting a replica.if you dont get one your not riding fast enough and should take up something else.or just ride and enjoy it.derek minter went round at 100 miles an hour nearly60 years ago on a circuit which was nothing like the motorway you have now.and on tyres you would reject for going to work on.and with brakes that faded coming down the mountain leaving little to stop for governers.and no 90 bore motor....for me bring on the mv and everything else lets have some variety..im off to read my poster by h.l.daniell that lap at 91 in 1938..bet he got some reps...he once said i would be a good rider if only i would let the brakes off !but i got a rep...

Thing is, guys... to finish first, first you must finish, and any of them could (and sometimes do) break down.
Go out there, with whatever machine you can afford ... or like best (it isn't just about money), do your best... come back next year and better your own times... that's what the Manx is all about.
BTW, you can win and still improve the next time in that kind of race.....you can be last and still have improved on your previous best. That's the spirit of the Manx Grand Prix
Only 4 more sleeps!

On reflection I think Will and David are spot-on about classic racing at the TT, whichever way you look at it, it would almost certainly be detrimental to the MGP and play havoc with practice and race schedules. Good point guys.

In terms of the field depletion issue (which I know isn't strictly on-topic but has been discussed at length) there is no way we can blame quick riders for that. People have always been fast on fast bikes. To my mind it's 100% the TT course licence requirements. Look at the entry for the Senior Classic - we had 105 bikes in 2005 (anyone remember the Belgian bloke with the Paton who was number 105) and, after the 6 races-a-year rule came in, the entry dropped to 90 in 2006, 69 last year but happily has recovered slightly to 73. The same trend, as everyone knows, is evidenced in the Junior and the Lightweight and it's a big shame.

Badger is spot on in his comments about declining entries. The decline has been specially noticeable in the last couple of years, since the introduction of the course licence. I don't think that's a coincidence or an effect of the increasing age of riders. As with Barry, I personally know of riders who want to enter and have done meetings but the ACU haven't accepted them as qualifying events. Yet someone who plods round on a G50 at the back of a F400 club race would be accepted. Madness. But as the man says, madness we have no choice in as long as the races are held under the ACU. There's a lesson in there somewhere.

Given a more enlightened regime the issues we have been debating would be less pressing, since with more riders coming back there would be less worry about big-budget bikes and TT pot-hunters scooping up all the trophies. If a few people did drift away there would still be plenty of entries. But that's not the case, we do have a shortage of entries and it behooves us all who want to see the events continue to consider why people are turning away. The impossibility, for the long-term amateur supporters of the Manx, of riding on a level playing field against TT riders on megabucks machines, I suggest, is one, though TT riders on megabucks machines may differ in their views.

As I've said in the past there's no real way of limiting what people spend on their bikes (though a "buy the winner" rule might be a good sanity check!) but I remain convinced that spending the price of a small house on a racing bike is not in the spirit of the Manx.

I also remain unconvinced that the Classic events should be such an exception to the rules on which riders are allowed to ride at the Manx. I appreciate there's no logical TT progression as there is in the modern classes, so excluding winners wouldn't be right, but I still feel riders should have to choose between TT and Manx, not both. The Manx is not the TT, simple as. Folk who think others only race there so they can speak of being beaten by world class riders are fooling themselves.

Intrigued to hear the suggestion of allowing 750 machines into the Senior classic (this would bring me back so I'm not unbiased here!) though the 500 purists and those who have spent a fortune on Patons and the like may object!

I must say one thing and one thing only. If I had the money to buy the best machinery, I would, and then as mentioned before, I would look for a capable rider to ride it. Don't want my little baby going down the road with a twit on it that will crash.

There is no point in having cash you have worked hard for and be told sorry you carn't spend that on a decent bike its not fair..... total cods wollop. I am sure if everyone had the cash available they would get the best they could buy.... for others, like the rest of us poor people, we will just have to make do. If the Manx accept the entry then it is accepted... no if's .... no but's..... if it fits in with the regs, its in ...... you can have no argument against it..