As I sit here looking out on a lovely Manx day, with perfect racing conditions, we face at least a 2 hour delay to a programme already at bursting point, due to an RTC just prior to roads closing.

I've spent the past hour reflecting over the problems facing the TT, as the event has grown, so have the problems, its a worry, and if left unchecked these problems could ultimately grow to a point where they threaten the very existence of the event as we know it, I don't have answers to the problems below, but I think they need some serious thought by the organisers and other involved parties.

1) We have an increasing number of road riders trying to get to their vantage point before roads close, this leads to the inevitable increase in accidents.

2) Serious road accidents now require a full lock down of the scene and investigations to take place before anything else can happen, which I cant quite get my head around given the modern resources now available in relation to recording equipment.

3) I don't think its just me getting older, I honestly think the standard of riding amongst 'fans' has been going downhill rapidly in the past 2 or 3 years, leading to more accidents and less tolerance by residents.

4) We have an increasing number of what I would call 'bucket list' or 'stag trip' visitors, who don't really understand the event, don't read or listen to anything, and think its ok to urinate in peoples gardens, to walk along or across closed roads, and to ignore officials when challenged, as I type this Chris Kinley is again appealing over the radio to people who have been seen on the roads in the past few minutes, despite many similar announcements over the past hour or so.

5) For riders, practice time is getting really tight, setting up a superbike needs more than a couple of laps in most cases, and most riders now have 3 - 4 bikes to dial in during the week (I do have an idea on a possible solution to this one)

To be clear, this isn't a criticism of anyone, the CoC and everyone else does a great job and I wouldn't want to be in the CoC's shoes, but I do wonder if the TT is now becoming a victim of its own success?

(08-06-2015, 11:58 AM)warrior Wrote: As I sit here looking out on a lovely Manx day, with perfect racing conditions, we face at least a 2 hour delay to a programme already at bursting point, due to an RTC just prior to roads closing.

I've spent the past hour reflecting over the problems facing the TT, as the event has grown, so have the problems, its a worry, and if left unchecked these problems could ultimately grow to a point where they threaten the very existence of the event as we know it, I don't have answers to the problems below, but I think they need some serious thought by the organisers and other involved parties.

1) We have an increasing number of road riders trying to get to their vantage point before roads close, this leads to the inevitable increase in accidents.

2) Serious road accidents now require a full lock down of the scene and investigations to take place before anything else can happen, which I cant quite get my head around given the modern resources now available in relation to recording equipment.

3) I don't think its just me getting older, I honestly think the standard of riding amongst 'fans' has been going downhill rapidly in the past 2 or 3 years, leading to more accidents and less tolerance by residents.

4) We have an increasing number of what I would call 'bucket list' or 'stag trip' visitors, who don't really understand the event, don't read or listen to anything, and think its ok to urinate in peoples gardens, to walk along or across closed roads, and to ignore officials when challenged, as I type this Chris Kinley is again appealing over the radio to people who have been seen on the roads in the past few minutes, despite many similar announcements over the past hour or so.

5) For riders, practice time is getting really tight, setting up a superbike needs more than a couple of laps in most cases, and most riders now have 3 - 4 bikes to dial in during the week (I do have an idea on a possible solution to this one)

To be clear, this isn't a criticism of anyone, the CoC and everyone else does a great job and I wouldn't want to be in the CoC's shoes, but I do wonder if the TT is now becoming a victim of its own success?

it's obviously not just old curmudgeons like me that foresee difficult times ahead for the TT if behaviour does not improve;    I agree with the points raised.  

A well written, interesting, and pertinent post!
I agree with every word.

(08-06-2015, 12:18 PM)Splashdown Wrote: A well written, interesting, and pertinent post!
I agree with every word.

I've been around and inside the sport all my adult life, just like you Nick, and I really do worry just where this is all heading over the next few years.

In the end, doesn't it all come down to your fourth point? If visitors respect the island, the riders, the marshalls and each other I can imagine the majority of the problems disappear. How to achieve that is another question, since I think it's not just a TT problem but a problem of society nowadays in general where people want to claim their rights without paying their duties. How is the social control during the Isle of Man TT? If someone litters or urinates in public does he get corrected by whoever is around and does feel responsible? How big is the problem? Are these a couple of people ruining it for the majority or are we beyond that point?

First time post. I intend to finally visit the Isle of Man TT in 2016 for the first time and hope to avoid the 'bucket list' visitors as much as possible.

@Warrior
On your first point, there used to be far more bikes on the island years ago, and far less of this type of incident used to occur, I think it's the "bucket list" rider's attitudes that have changed the number of unnecessary incidents.

Is it possible that the acceleration of bikes nowadays means that some people can get into a dangerous situation really quickly compared to years ago?

(08-06-2015, 12:43 PM)excollier Wrote: @Warrior
On your first point, there used to be far more bikes on the island years ago, and far less of this type of incident used to occur, I think it's the "bucket list" rider's attitudes that have changed the number of unnecessary incidents.

It's been a long time since I was able to come to the Island, and I remember the 2 miles of promenade chock-a-bloc with bikes, don't think I'd like what I'd see nowadays.


As to another post about challenging litterers and pee-ers,  well,  frequently they are intimidating looking yobbos , and very unlikely to pay much attention to a polite approach from someone civilised.  Western Society is going to Hell in a Handcart,  in fact it seems that the "tuff guy "manner has become a fashion for many.  You only have to go past a gathering of like-minded individuals, whether boy-racers, Hog riders, Subaru owners, you name 'em, to see the geezers standing around looking "well'ard" , arms folded to push the muscles into prominence, designer shades , pirate headscarves , I could go on and on.  The awful thing is, that many of these yobs are old enough to know better.

Sorry, overdone the rant as usual
Dave

(08-06-2015, 01:18 PM)numptydad Wrote:

(08-06-2015, 12:43 PM)excollier Wrote: @Warrior
On your first point, there used to be far more bikes on the island years ago, and far less of this type of incident used to occur, I think it's the "bucket list" rider's attitudes that have changed the number of unnecessary incidents.

It's been a long time since I was able to come to the Island, and I remember the 2 miles of promenade chock-a-bloc with bikes, don't think I'd like what I'd see nowadays.


As to another post about challenging litterers and pee-ers,  well,  frequently they are intimidating looking yobbos , and very unlikely to pay much attention to a polite approach from someone civilised.  Western Society is going to Hell in a Handcart,  in fact it seems that the "tuff guy "manner has become a fashion for many.  You only have to go past a gathering of like-minded individuals, whether boy-racers, Hog riders, Subaru owners, you name 'em, to see the geezers standing around looking "well'ard" , arms folded to push the muscles into prominence, designer shades , pirate headscarves , I could go on and on.  The awful thing is, that many of these yobs are old enough to know better.

Sorry, overdone the rant as usual
Dave

All of these are excellent points. Like many of you, I have been going over to watch the racing for many years - and my dad even longer. However, I thought a letter in (the absolutely excellent) "Ride" magazine this month summed up some of the problems perfectly. A chap had written in to say how the racing was a sideshow and he and his mates went for the drinking and partying. He reckons that why most people go these days. I'm not sure that is true (2001 proved that!), but it does indicate a sorry state of affairs and attitudes - and of-course, he may be a wind up merchant! But it is one of the reasons I much prefer the Manx GP these days.

I am getting old!

I'm the same as many ohers here. My grandfather attended the first TT in 1907 and my dad his first in 1926. My parents brought me over as a baby in 1952. The 1960's and early 70's for example there were far more bikes here than there are today. You couldn't move on Douglas Prom for lines of bikes parked on both sides PLUS on the pavements on both sides.

Apart from the "bucket listers" the other issue as I see it is that it's far too easy these days for someone with a good credit rating to buy a high-performance bike without having to serve the apprenticeship that most of us served before getting something "really fast". TBH I've seen so much cringe-worthy riding by Power Rangers this year that it's not funny. All my 2-wheel conveyances are staying inside the garage until the last of the idiots have been removed from the Rock by the Steam Packet.

(08-06-2015, 01:18 PM)numptydad Wrote: Western Society is going to Hell in a Handcart,  in fact it seems that the "tuff guy "manner has become a fashion for many.  You only have to go past a gathering of like-minded individuals, whether boy-racers, Hog riders, Subaru owners, you name 'em, to see the geezers standing around looking "well'ard" , arms folded to push the muscles into prominence, designer shades , pirate headscarves , I could go on and on.

Or mods or rockers?

While I don't disagree with the general thrust of the arguments made in this thread, let's not idealise the past. For example RTCs during the TT are not a new phenomenon. I'd be interested to know what the statistics are on that - I'm not as certain as some of you that road safety is worse now. Certainly I see more young idiots doing silly things on the roads now than I did 20 years ago, but then again, 20 years ago I was a young idiot, so maybe it's my perspective that has changed rather than reality.

We all have our opinions. Mine is that road safety is worse these days because of the increase in performance of all motorised transport and the ease with which anyone can buy literally whatever they want on credit without the "apprenticeship" that most bikers used to go through in order to have at least the basic idea how to ride it.

Compared to what we used to have the practice time available isn't good and only leads to frustration and pressure with sessions inevitably lost to weather/open road incidents etc - this will only ever change when a "name" or big team isn't able to start the race because the machine isn't qualified.  The walking on the course/closed road thing - Where's the published/advertised deterrent or convictions ?? - just read the 8 week sentence dished out so consider this comment retracted. The number of riders who bimble into corners at a speed you could walk round, bottle out, lob all the brakes on and make a wayward dangerous tit out of themselves is very noticeable as is many riders going for overtakes that simply hope there's not a similar vehicle doing the same coming in the opposite direction - they can't possibly ride like this the rest of the year as they wouldn't survive a month - I think the serious speed/drink offences have reduced since the bans and endorsements imposed are applicable to UK licences. The RTC's are more evident now because of the closures even for serious injuries - in the past we wouldn't have noticed as the debris would be swept up on open roads, rider taken to hospital and the bike dumped at the back of Dibble HQ. More vehicles on the road will by nature lead to more accidents - not sure what physically can be done about that or better managed - maybe we are having more accidents further around the course because the spread of fans accommodation is wider across the island now ?. I've met lots of new fans from all round the world recently but I've only ever had genuine enthusiasm conversations with them which can only be good. I suspect the uneducated bucket list people are probably on corporate tickets. The CoC managing of delays is better these days, there's little of the old sat in a misty field fannying around waiting for "A further announcement in an hour" malarkey. The parking/getting in and out of Nobles Park really really needs looking at with both entry/exit vehicles having to use the same narrow road - driving up and down the footpaths for access isn't really up to date for such a large event.

They have made a bit of an example of one of yesterdays villain's (see other thread) which is a start, and are also appealing for help to try and identify the two guys in the photo from this morning which will hopefully lead to them going the same way as the other guy.

The only thing I can think of to gain extra practice time would be to run a session from say 0900 to 11.30 or 12 noon on the middle Saturday, this would give a similar amount of time to that of the old Thursday afternoon session, and time to get out on all bikes if required, then run the sidecar race in the afternoon followed by the superbike race in the late afternoon/early evening.

It would be a long day for all concerned, but no longer than days like today, and there would be less pressure caused by road closures as less people (but not all I appreciate) would be going to work and trying to get home again.

Running the superbikes later would give the solo riders a break of around 6 hours from the morning practice.

This idea also gives the option to shunt the whole thing over to Sunday if the weather doesn't play ball, without tangling with the next race day.

Can someone remind me why the early morning practices were stopped please? It used to be all done and dusted by 7 a.m. and roads opened. I know, as a marshal in the late eighties, it was a bit tough getting up at 4 a.m. but the roads were quiet and the marshals and the very hardy were the only traffic, fewer accidents.

(08-06-2015, 05:12 PM)excollier Wrote: Can someone remind me why the early morning practices were stopped please? It used to be all done and dusted by 7 a.m. and roads opened. I know, as a marshal in the late eighties, it was a bit tough getting up at 4 a.m. but the roads were quiet and the marshals and the very hardy were the only traffic, fewer accidents.

good question, and I look forward to the answers.  I marshalled in 1985, and  once having dragged myself  from my pit, actually being at Handley's, or Barregarrow, 11th milestone, etc.,  it was superb listening to the bikes approaching from about 4 miles way - surely early practice would be over before the come-overs get up to go to their merchant banks and insurance companies?

And once practice was over, my old fashioned Landlady, Mrs  Blackburn and her husband Brian treated me like a hero, with a wonderful, huge breakfast! I stayed at "Bonivard"   The Broadway, wonder what's there now?

Probably apartments or offices like everything else from that era.

(08-06-2015, 05:12 PM)excollier Wrote: Can someone remind me why the early morning practices were stopped please? It used to be all done and dusted by 7 a.m. and roads opened. I know, as a marshal in the late eighties, it was a bit tough getting up at 4 a.m. but the roads were quiet and the marshals and the very hardy were the only traffic, fewer accidents.

I loved the early morning practices, up at 4, a couple of hours marshalling, big fry up breakfast after, then back to bed for a couple of hours.
It was like having 2 days for every day in practice week (if you know what I mean).
And no crowds of spectators to worry about.

(08-06-2015, 05:12 PM)excollier Wrote: Can someone remind me why the early morning practices were stopped please? It used to be all done and dusted by 7 a.m. and roads opened. I know, as a marshal in the late eighties, it was a bit tough getting up at 4 a.m. but the roads were quiet and the marshals and the very hardy were the only traffic, fewer accidents.

Early morning practices are not viable now as there would not be enough marshals in place. The current requirements are far higher than what was considered sufficient  some years ago.
 With regard to the number of RTCs, perhaps a 30mph blanket limit on race days would be the answer?
 Dogsbody

(08-06-2015, 06:49 PM)Dogsbody Wrote:

(08-06-2015, 05:12 PM)excollier Wrote: Can someone remind me why the early morning practices were stopped please? It used to be all done and dusted by 7 a.m. and roads opened. I know, as a marshal in the late eighties, it was a bit tough getting up at 4 a.m. but the roads were quiet and the marshals and the very hardy were the only traffic, fewer accidents.

Early morning practices are not viable now as there would not be enough marshals in place. The current requirements are far higher than what was considered sufficient  some years ago.
 With regard to the number of RTCs, perhaps a 30mph blanket limit on race days would be the answer?
 Dogsbody

Ah, yes, the perennial problem of marshals,  they clearly need ME again, crocked right leg, arthritis, trapped nerve and all;  still, with all that, if I could afford to get there, I'd do it
Dave