Hilary M Wrote:Thank you Cargo,but I am still unclear about prohibited areas and restricted areas.From what I am aware,there are only prohibited area signs now,or at least last year,and no such thing as a restricted area,or at least,no signs stating such.It is still unclear,or am I more thick than most people think
Colin,from what I recall,I only had an armband,which I suppose acts as your warrant,but I agree that marshals have to look after both competitors and spectators and they should be in as safe a place as possible. So many of you have given a great deal of thought to your suggestions and I sincerely hope some of them are taken on board by the organisers.The "ordinary" marshals should be consulted as much as possible as they are the ones who stand in the firing line.So much has changed over the years,machines are so fast,tyres allow such grip and angles of lean,that posts and signs have to be moved further from the edge of the road.True,stone walls can't be moved, but they are more visible at 180mph than a small,unpainted post.None of us want to see such changes that the TT no longer becomes the ultimate challenge, but the organisers have to move with the times

Hilary the restricted area thing is new for this year so far as I know.


Take it from me "prohibited area" means that NO ONE should be in there..................

In the case of marshals assisting an injured rider then it is allowed for marshals to go into a prohibited area but of course the yellows will be out

thewitch Wrote:Your warrant card is the card in your armband, and it has on it the terms and duties of a marshal, space to record your sessions, your details etd. I find the actual armband a nuisance as it slips off my arm, but I have been told that cutting the armband and sewing the holder to your tabard is not allowed... why don't we get credit card sized credentials like the ACU ones? Much handier, and maybe in the long term chipped.
I advocated this for licences, so they could be chipped and then record your races for, say, 5 years, removing the need for the silly 6 qualifying races rule... all places, and also misdemeanors would be recorded at every race (internationally?)
In the case of marshals you could build up a credit... like your Tesco card (not mine, I hate 'em, but that's another story!).
Come on... it's the 21st century now...

Totally unrelated to your post, but it occurs to me in an oblique way.
Do you remember when the "Herald of Free Enterprise" ro-ro ferry capsized in Zeebrugge harbour? Horrendous happening identified eventually as being a result of the bow doors not being closed appropriately. I was on the "Spirit of Free Enterprise", its sister ship a short while later. We sailed at 4am ex-Dover. The Ship's captain was at pains to announce that the bow doors had been secured. We were all on deck to give ourselves the best chance if it went over.

In that theatre of doubt, the fact that the major fear had been addressed was very re-assuring and it felt like the safest time to travel.

There's got to be an analogy to this present situation. Marshals need clear guidance that their actions will not be a ticket to either the courts or Jurby House. Marshals need to feel that they are safe to Marshal.

Another 2p

Thanks Helen for clarifying the armband.I totally agree with the credit card type credentials,should have been implemented long ago,would save so much expense in paperwork alone.Cargo,I didn't realise restricted areas were a new thing for this year,so it appears they will be better protected now.Balin,let's hope that this year's marshals will feel that they are at last respected more for what they do,and they should feel safer in so much that the organisers will be held more responsible for all that goes on.

thewitch Wrote:Your warrant card is the card in your armband, and it has on it the terms and duties of a marshal, space to record your sessions, your details etd. I find the actual armband a nuisance as it slips off my arm, but I have been told that cutting the armband and sewing the holder to your tabard is not allowed... why don't we get credit card sized credentials like the ACU ones? Much handier, and maybe in the long term chipped.
I advocated this for licences, so they could be chipped and then record your races for, say, 5 years, removing the need for the silly 6 qualifying races rule... all places, and also misdemeanors would be recorded at every race (internationally?)
In the case of marshals you could build up a credit... like your Tesco card (not mine, I hate 'em, but that's another story!).
Come on... it's the 21st century now...

The following (serious) quote from the 2004 Gorse Lea Marshals' Report Number 2 refers to the practical solution to the Warrant Card problem. I understand that our "patent" was adapted soon after for their marshals' tabards by the progressive S100 Club.

"Fashion Note: Sector Marshal Alexander spent some time at the Harold Leece Shelter and has expressed his approval for our customised warrant card holders that we've had stitched to our marshal waistcoats, replacing the obstructive arm-bands. These are soon to be patented, so remember where they began!"

Hilary M Wrote:Thanks Helen for clarifying the armband.I totally agree with the credit card type credentials,should have been implemented long ago,would save so much expense in paperwork alone.Cargo,I didn't realise restricted areas were a new thing for this year,so it appears they will be better protected now.Balin,let's hope that this year's marshals will feel that they are at last respected more for what they do,and they should feel safer in so much that the organisers will be held more responsible for all that goes on.

I suspect that the reason that credit card warrants are not in use is because the warrant (authorised by the Chief Constable) must be clearly displayed. Realistically this is so that warrant cards can be inspected easily. It would be all too simple for someone without any authority or training to pop on a tabard and spectate from any location that they fancied.

thewitch Wrote:
Your warrant card is the card in your armband, and it has on it the terms and duties of a marshal, space to record your sessions, your details etd. I find the actual armband a nuisance as it slips off my arm, but I have been told that cutting the armband and sewing the holder to your tabard is not allowed... why don't we get credit card sized credentials like the ACU ones? Much handier, and maybe in the long term chipped.
I advocated this for licences, so they could be chipped and then record your races for, say, 5 years, removing the need for the silly 6 qualifying races rule... all places, and also misdemeanors would be recorded at every race (internationally?)
In the case of marshals you could build up a credit... like your Tesco card (not mine, I hate 'em, but that's another story!).
Come on... it's the 21st century now...



Rightly or wrongly because of problems with my armband slipping from my arm i have been placing my Warrant Card inside a pass holder around my neck. I often had cause for concern that in the event of dealing with an incident where would i stand if my warrant card had fallen from my possession. Putting my concerns aside, i truly believe the time has come for a more practical, user friendly means of displaying the warrant card. How much does it cost to issue new warrant card holders every TT and or MGP to regular Marshalls?. As with earlier postings perhaps we should be looking at reusable warrant cards.

lewy15 Wrote:thewitch Wrote:
Your warrant card is the card in your armband, and it has on it the terms and duties of a marshal, space to record your sessions, your details etd. I find the actual armband a nuisance as it slips off my arm, but I have been told that cutting the armband and sewing the holder to your tabard is not allowed... why don't we get credit card sized credentials like the ACU ones? Much handier, and maybe in the long term chipped.
I advocated this for licences, so they could be chipped and then record your races for, say, 5 years, removing the need for the silly 6 qualifying races rule... all places, and also misdemeanors would be recorded at every race (internationally?)
In the case of marshals you could build up a credit... like your Tesco card (not mine, I hate 'em, but that's another story!).
Come on... it's the 21st century now...



Rightly or wrongly because of problems with my armband slipping from my arm i have been placing my Warrant Card inside a pass holder around my neck. I often had cause for concern that in the event of dealing with an incident where would i stand if my warrant card had fallen from my possession. Putting my concerns aside, i truly believe the time has come for a more practical, user friendly means of displaying the warrant card. How much does it cost to issue new warrant card holders every TT and or MGP to regular Marshalls?. As with earlier postings perhaps we should be looking at reusable warrant cards.

Many apolgies this was my posting, Lewy15 is my son and i had not realised he was logged in. Perhaps we should have a newcomers entry on this forum. Some of us need a few more practise laps.

Peter, of course speed is one of many factors involved in accidents. Road accident statistics show that the faster you go the more likely you are to crash and the faster you crash the more likely you are to die. I also agree that faster and heavier bikes will cause more damage (Kinetic Energy = (mass x velocity2) /2) – meaning that velocity is more of a factor than mass). My point, which perhaps was not very well made in the interests of time and space, was that things are a lot more complicated than speed alone. This is actually agreeing with your initial point that racing is inherently dangerous. I am just not sure that reducing capacity on the basis of one accident will change a lot in the future. Guys will always be pushing the limits wherever that limit might be and modern 2-strokes are plenty fast to cause damage.
Of course I would rather be hit by a Vespa than a lorry though I don’t suspect I would ever go to the IOM TT to watch Vespa racing for a week! This would certainly be an effective way to reduce serious accidents though. Had Marc been riding a smaller bike then there is the possibility that things would have been different in this case. My point was more of a general one than focusing on this specific incident. Indeed, none of the Irish guys killed over the last decade involved any spectators but it could easily have been different, particularly with Joey’s and John Donnan’s crashes,
Concentrating on the riders first. The problem is that these guys are travelling at well over the body’s tolerable limit for coping with rapid deceleration injuries. It doesn’t matter if you hit a pole at 190mph or 90mph, the result will be the same. In a University of California study of 4935 fatal motorcycle accidents in 2006 the median estimated speed at which the rider hit a stationary object was 21.5mph! In other words going from 21.5mph to 0mph rapidly commonly causes enough damage to kill someone. Intensive Care studies show that a motorcycle rider hitting a stationary object at over 20mph is at “high risk” of requiring ICU treatment. By how much should speed be reduced to make racing safer? How many would go to the TT if the big bikes were axed? Would manufacturers be happy with this etc?
Granted, my point about the Irish races was made specifically concerning riders. However, I would reinforce that in Irish Races or in accidents involving Irish riders over the last approx 10 years there have been 10 guys killed when riding 2-stroke or Classic machinery, and 7 on modern 4-strokes. If you also look at the Manx GP, which has a much bigger variety of racing than the TT, over the last 10 years there have been more fatal accidents involving 2 stroke and classic riders than the bigger bikes. Yet guys like McCallen and Hizzy got away with 140mph plus accidents at Quarry Bends because they slid up the road (on 250s), more due to luck than judgment. Of course this all seems obvious and deserved a slap head!
You have made the point about spectator safety. Looking back at Irish Road Races there have been unfortunate fatal accidents involving spectators in 1928, 1960 (2), 1977 and 1997. Marshals have been killed in 1932, 1961 and 2001. That seems pretty random and not exclusively due to modern 1000cc Superbikes. Statistics also show that pedestrians are likely to be seriously injured if they experience blunt force trauma being hit by a vehicle travelling at more than 20mph. Again there are many variables, like where the trauma is applied. How do you give spectators more time to get out of the way? Reducing speed and is an option but I suggest that at the TT when spectators are standing right beside the road this might be marginal. I agree it might have changed this particular incident but would it stop others in future that are likely to be at other sections of the course? What about making spectators stand further back, or stopping children/ elderly/ disabled people attending races or even banning the consumption of alcohol by spectators. All of these would ensure that spectators have good reaction times! Of course I am not advocating this and it would never happen. However, I think the saddest part and main contributor to this particular tragedy that we should focus on was the lack of communication, meaning that spectators were standing in a prohibited area, rather than the capacity of the bike involved.
As an aside. you have specifically mentioned the bumpiness of the Sulby Straight and that allowing bikes to go faster results in more accidents. I think that over the years about 5 riders have been killed around Sulby/Sulby Bridge, the last being in 1995. This obviously proves little and stats can be used in any way to back up a point but perhaps road improvements have made actually the Sulby Straight safer?
I agree that in general the Mountain course should be preserved but again where do you draw the line. Should the last rider off the mountain have to close the gate? The trouble with the TT circuit is that its dangerous everywhere. If you look at the tragic list of fatalities published elsewhere this will be confirmed. Certain places do appear more dangerous over the years than others eg Rhencullen, Bray Hill, May Hill, Alpine, 33rd. Should we concentrate on these areas for changes to be made. Most of us agree this is not what we’d like to see. As far as I can see this was also the first fatal accident at the 26th Milestone which reinforces that, on the Mountain Circuit, everywhere is dangerous.

Greeba and Lewy... glad to see we have a family membership here! As with the Mussons, of course.

I digress, but what repercussions will there be from this for other forms of popular motorsport on the Island such as rallying and hillclimbs?

The TT Course is now marshalled by line-of-sight rules and strict manning-levels per section (many of these sections make up a sector). Four-wheeled sport is not governed by such strict regulations, but is potentially more dangerous due to the sheer mass and power of the vehicles, not to mention the tradition of spectators walking along the road on active stages. I heard of one surprised rally driver last year who had to take avoiding action when confronted by a lady with a baby in a pram on the stage.

Imagine trying to run from your "safe" spectating position on a bank or even in a field if this went out of control.



Thanks to Dave K. for this excellent image of Derek McGarrity in a past Rally Isle of Man...
I found this example of Dave's work here:
http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/...hp?t=28299

Phil,you should be on one of the TT organising committees,or at least a local MHK! You have made some brilliant observations,and I must say,I would be hard pressed to disagree with any of them.I suppose that,as I was so involved in the Joey's incident,I am obviously looking at ways to ensure it doesn't happen again,and indeed why we were all so vulnerable to injury.Lack of good communication and the fact that the organisers are the people who SHOULD be the main overseers,are the main reasons for things going wrong.Hopefully,this will be put right this year.I still would never go into a prohibited area again.Please don't even think about banning disabled people,as I won't even be allowed to spectate again
Mr Gorselea,I have always thought that spectators at car rallies are really taking the p**s out of the sport.How on earth they are permitted to do such stupid things,is way beyond me,and it is high time that the insurers looked at this aspect.I still love it all and I totally underststand what makes our daft sports tick

Hilary, I'm glad you didn't see yourself in the elderly category anyway!!!
As an aside I was looking thru an old autograph book the other night. Low and behold I have your autograph (on the same page as Trev Nation, Neil Tuxworth and Chas Mortimer). Got it in the Dundrod paddock and for a small fee I will not even mention what year it was- obviously I was just a wee boy at the time

Oh, dear, you are treading on very thin ice here, laddie................ (ELDERLY... cheeky young whippersnapper!) (older than Hilary)

I can see Cargo stepping in to sort this out.

Maybe I should have said I can't believe I went to the bother of getting Neil Tuxworth's autograph, or would that be too harsh! Cheers guys.

Just wanted to say thankyou to everyone who continues to post on this thread. Its got to be one of the most constructive threads i have read.

I really hope that many of the comments will have been noted and hopefully suggestions acted on, for the good of the TT that we all hold so dearly.

Wishing a safe and successfull season to everyone involved in racing this year.

Many good points posted in this thread, too many to quote so forgive me if I pick and choose. Like FC my work involves Risk Assessments, and it is a good observation that they are intended not to eliminate all risk but to reduce it to an acceptable level. An acceptable level for motorsport is unlikely to be the same as in an office environment, and we should beware of Insurers and Coroners who would like it to be so, for that will surely kill the sport. However that should not stop us from taking all reasonable precautions to mitigate the risk, and an effective RA is part of that. Simply carrying out the RA is not enough, the mitigating activities must be carried out and this is seems is why the tragedy of the 26th became an even bigger tragedy.

The RA for the sector had evidently identified the danger of an out of control bike mounting the bank and landing in the area concerned, and it should have been posted Prohibited. That RA doesn't need to be re-done every year unless the course has changed in the area (in which case it should be re-done before the next race event) however for the sake of confidence and increasing bike speeds a re-assessment every 5-10 years would make sense. Thus I don't have an issue with the RA being dated 2004 but rather why it wasn't correctly implemented.

In Aviation, the industry I work in, accident investigation is critical and is carried out in a way not to apportion blame on individuals (which will simply lead to cover-ups and slopey shoulders) but rather to determine the root causes of incidents so they can be removed. As the saying goes, there is no such thing as an accident, there is a chain of events and if you break that chain at any point the "accident" will not happen. As such Mr Moyle, while doing a very thorough job of investigating the circumstances of the incident, utterly fails to draw meaningful conclusions or make realistic recommendations for the prevention of similar tragedies. He prefers to blame individuals and criticise the very nature of the races. Perhaps this is understandable in a Coroner who regularly has to preside over such emotional events, but it is not helpful. The field that has grown most in recent years is "Human Factors" which recognises that accidents are rarely the event of people neglecting their jobs or wilfully doing them wrong, but rather by the circumstances that push them down particular course of action. Click here for more information on HF. In simply apportioning blame Mr Moyle ignores the HF issues that were likely major contributors.

Looking deeper into the events there are some questions that I believe should have been asked, but were not.

1. Was Marc Ramsbotham's accident really unavoidable or unforeseeable? Without criticism of Marc I believe not. This TT was his first and he had not previously competed at the Manx GP. Riders are regularly accepted for the TT without having gone through the Manx, where competition is at a lower level and qualifying speeds are lower. Nothing stops a rider from riding to the edge or beyond of his capabilities at the Manx of course but there is less incentive to do so, and no prize money to race for. We had all the rubbish of the Course Licence foisted on us, which does NOTHING to prepare a rider for the challenges of the Mountain Course, yet riders are accepted into the TT with no experience of real road racing. Why?

2. Given that there were people whose responsibility included setting out and checking the Prohibited Area signage, why was it so hard to find anyone who accepted it was their responsibility? I suggest this is because the part-time volunteers were, as the Coroner suspected, simply doing what they had been told to by their predecessors. This should not be seen as a criticism of the post holders but rather of the system, which has loaded (onto the Marshalling organisation not least) a huge amount of additional responsibility to ensure that the task of maintaining course safety measures is carried out to the nth degree, including any new measures heaped on top. Workload is a key part of HF and the organisers need to consider whether the Chief Marshal and Sector Marshals have enough time as unpaid officials to do the job as required. Where training is the issue (as opposed to handover from the last person) then the training needs to be documented so all aspects are covered, adequate time and resources need to be allocated and the progress of the training and competence of the post holder should be assessed. IMC courses are all well and good but do not cover the extra range of duties required of the Marshalling control/management staff.

It's too easy to point the finger at individuals but if they are not trained and given the necessary support of course their jobs will suffer. That's not their fault (which is why I was sorry to see Cathy Pullen had resigned http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/Chief-sec...3930193.jp ). The system let them down and the finger should really be pointed at those who have put in or allowed to continue an inadequate system. If in doubt who that may be the Coroner indicated an intolerable degree of smugness in certain individuals, and that to me is key to the matter, not the hard-working individuals out on track.

For as long as the Organisers regard the TT and MGP as little more than cash cows and tourist attractions with disposable riders, and consider that part-time unpaid officials can be sent off with a pat on the back for thanks, to face the legal consequences if something goes wrong, we will keep chasing symptoms and events like this will simply hide in the background until another shortcoming is revealed.

My 2p is that certain actions need to be taken at the top to support the riders and officials and give them the tools to do the job, with the risk that the mountain of H&S regulation and persecution of Marshals will eventually kill the races:

1. Require all newcomers to the TT to have raced the Manx GP as a qualifying event and means of gaining course experience in a less pressured environment.

2. Engage a firm of H&S/HF consultants to determine the appropriate management structure of the organising committee, defining clearly the roles and responsibilities for each post and whether they can be carried out on a full time or part time basis.

3. Allocate suffient funding and facilities to run the recommended structure and provide the required training for the officials. This must include cascade training for deputy officials who would most likely be PT, and the FT officials must have the knowledge and available time to carry out that training.

4. Given the extent of Marshal-bashing that has taken place in recent years and the increased manning levels mandated, actions need to be taken to encourage more marshals to work the course, especially during practice weeks which are often the problem times. A pie and a pint is pretty inadequate given the cost in money and annual holiday that they incur to do the job. My suggestion would be ferry vouchers against the following year's event, worth 50% for the full practice week and 50% for the full race week, redeemable against attendance cards signed by the Sector Marshal and funded by the IoMTB. Those who wish to do so, or who wouldn't use the vouchers, could opt for a cash sum to be donated to the Helicopter Fund or Joey Dunlop Fund instead.

All the above would cost money but I fear the alternative would be the loss of the races and with them the tourist revenue.

I'm a first time poster, but long time reader of this forum, and am now drawn to comment on this thread, which I agree has had some valuable contributions.

To Tomcat - that is probably the most balanced and well reasoned post i have read on this subject. You have summed up perfectly my views on the subject. Sadly, and as is often the case, actions are likely to be taken on a reactive basis, rather than proactively.

I hope that "the powers that be" are reading and choose to respond, either directly through this forum, or by deed.

Juan

Tomcat,

We have read many views and comments regarding this and would like to say your posting is as constructive and well thought out of anything i have read.
I also work within H & S within my employment, however i could not have put the points over as clear and proffesional as that. I truly hope that individuals who have the position/influence are able to read your post and take it something from it.

Welcome to the forum, Wantan.
I am glad we have managed to have such reasoned and helpful discussions on here. I know some of the organisers, at different levels, from TT and MGP, read the forums, and I hope they have been following this one. However, I will send the thread to a few, just to make sure they have seen it.
If someone is reading this, and is, indeed, one of these people of influence and authority, it would be good to hear from you what you think of the debate here, and if any of the suggestions will be followed up. If you want suggestions, this is the the bunch to give you them (whether you want them or not, actually!)
It would also be good to get some news on the progress of preparations for the TT as they happen. Living here, I set the beginning of Spring as the day I see the first bale... or air-fence nowadays!