Tomcat.

What a well reasoned, thought through post.

I urge you to send it directly to the organisers, perhaps via Paul Phillips.

Thank You.

I can not in reality totally agree with some of Tomcats comments, but the vast majority of what he is saying should be implimented. I will just try to explain why I think a few of them maybe hard to enforce or justify.

1) The requirement for ALL newcomers to the TT to have done the ManxGP may not be as easy to apply as you may think. What would happen to our antipidean freinds down south, or even those from America or further afield. Even if you take some of the real fast riders like Steve Plater, would you have asked him to have done a ManxGP before the TT? If so then what would be the outcome for the riders of the Manx, a top lad and a very good rider making it impossible for the people in the Manx to win without overstepping their level of ability. Cargo knows exactly what I am meaning, it sometimes isn't the guys at the top, (forgive me Cargo for that), but the riders who want a rep. This would mean theat they also have to go quicker to come within the % required of the winners time, and believe me it is getting harder and harder for the riders who just are there because they love it and getting a rep is their aim.

So what would you do to get past this? Let them in? and then you would have the worst of the worst them and us senario ever. I think that the riders who are accepted for the TT are viewed in a way by the committee that their past results are a main key factor. Those that have raced on roads before also would be viewed in a better light. Don't forget that even some of thsoe people who attained the TT course licences are not guaranteed a ride.

2) I think it would be very hard to find any sort of H&S/HF team to fully understand the requirements of the TT, with the rules and regulations of the ACU, eg. Stewards, race officals, marshals, DCOC's and COC's. Rules of entry, FIM and others. It is really a mine field of legislation already for those who have the required level of both experiance and expertiese. I think I would prefer someone who has done it and learned from mistakes rather than someone totally new to oversee anything, and with my experiance of these sort of H&S/HF teams is it not something they would dwell on or even think about.

I think the other points are very well put and also very well balanced. Well done Tomcat!!!!

DCL I take your point about the difficulties for some to be able to do the Manx before the TT, and the undoubted competence of some short circuit guys despite their lack of experience on the roads. It was an issue I considered before posting my suggestion however. The problem we face is that today it is becoming ever harder to accept fatalities in motorsport. Those of us who have been around the TT/MGP for some time know that sh*t happens and we all know the score (I raced the Manx many times over a period of 20 years). However the mainstream press, health & safety, ambulance chasing lawyers and the Financial Sector who would love to see us consigned to history all have an ever louder voice. Thus I believe we need to take some major steps forward before someone grabs us and forces us to take even more, unpalatable ones. Rather than restricting the races themselves I'd rather restrict the entry criteria. Put that in the place of the utterly pointless Course Licence perhaps. I'm not sure it would affect too many people though, aren't most TT riders regulars? The main thing is, it is worrying that we have a unique, and uniquely challenging course, that we allow people to race on in top class competition with large prize money available, with no prior experience of such a course. At the Manx there is a Newcomers race for that exact reason. Could fatal crashes of TT Newcomers like Marc Ramsbotham and Joakim Karlsson have been avoided by this? Further, it worries me that we seem to be allowing it to happen so that the 'stars' will ride at the TT to increase its spectator appeal. Could the cost of that ultimately be too high if it allows newcomers to enter and make fatal mistakes while trying to keep up with the more experienced riders?

Maybe the one to put forward a viewpoint on the validity of that would be Shaun Harris who after all has done exactly that - jumped in the TT at the deep end (and swam rather well!).

As for sending in my suggestions to the organisers, Paul reads these boards I believe, so if any of my ideas are of use feel free, I don't want to get personally involved in what could be a very emotive issue with many vested interests.

Tomcat is to be complimented on his patience for his lengthy post, a lot of careful thought and in depth consideration has gone into it, and a good number of logical and common sense conclusions arrived at, but will anyone in authority really take any notice.

In particular his comments in respect of the TT course licence, mind bogglingly insane if I am correct that a quick squirt up a hill climb can be a qualifyiing event towards it. Also in respect of newcomers who may never have done or even seen a true road race, I venomously agree that all newcomers should do the MGP first, epecially with the sheer power and speed of todays machines. Doing the MGP first with it's lower qualifying speeds, lack of prize money and far less pressure, ride beyond experience and ability on a 37 mile public road that takes more than a fair bit of memorising and learning.

Tomcat

Top reply and an outstanding summation of the situation as it pertains.

Don't forget that many Marshals are Manx-based and have full-time jobs. Annual leave is often taken for race weeks, lest we forget the Manx. I wonder if there was a properly funded situation where Marshal were given Race Days as paid extra-ordinary leave whether there'd be the acute situation that we've experienced.

Great input and nicely done fella!!

Phil Windrum Wrote:you have specifically mentioned the bumpiness of the Sulby Straight and that allowing bikes to go faster results in more accidents. I think that over the years about 5 riders have been killed around Sulby/Sulby Bridge, the last being in 1995. This obviously proves little and stats can be used in any way to back up a point but perhaps road improvements have made actually the Sulby Straight safer?
I agree that in general the Mountain course should be preserved but again where do you draw the line. Should the last rider off the mountain have to close the gate? The trouble with the TT circuit is that its dangerous everywhere. If you look at the tragic list of fatalities published elsewhere this will be confirmed. Certain places do appear more dangerous over the years than others eg Rhencullen, Bray Hill, May Hill, Alpine, 33rd. Should we concentrate on these areas for changes to be made. Most of us agree this is not what we’d like to see.

I suspect (and have tried to check) that you have never raced on the TT course, Phil, as Sulby Straight is not to be confused with the Cronk-y-Voddy! IMHO it is more important that steps are taken to substantially reduce the risks - principally to spectators and marshals, as riders should be well aware of the dangers and ride accordingly - than to not do anything in case less spectators attend. It is this seemingly deliberate policy of treating everything that has happened as "misadventure", or "one of those things" that has allowed the organisers and the government to do little or nothing for many years.
I loved the races, and although never threatening the category of 'great' did my utmost in different conditions to rise to the challenge the course presented, but I had the opportunity each year as someone else said so well to "tune myself in" to road racing from short circuits, doing as many laps as I could in the dawn, afternoon and evening practice sessions. If the Island will not tolerate the essential disturbance to its routine, then it is forcing inexperienced riders trying to race way beyond their limits. I don't think there was a single year when I did less than 12 laps, and often did 20, spread across the different classes, and this after 2 MGPs to start the learning process.

PeterCourtney Wrote:I loved the races, and although never threatening the category of 'great' did my utmost in different conditions to rise to the challenge the course presented, but I had the opportunity each year as someone else said so well to "tune myself in" to road racing from short circuits, doing as many laps as I could in the dawn, afternoon and evening practice sessions. If the Island will not tolerate the essential disturbance to its routine, then it is forcing inexperienced riders trying to race way beyond their limits. I don't think there was a single year when I did less than 12 laps, and often did 20, spread across the different classes, and this after 2 MGPs to start the learning process.

Actually this is one of my favourite soapbox items as well, though strictly speaking maybe less relevant to the events under discussion. When I started racing on the IoM you had both a morning and evening practice session, plus an extra long one on Thursday afternoon. Now you just get the 6 brief evening sessions, usually less than that in fact if they mysteriously find oil or stray cows on the course, or if there is a wisp of mist over the mountain, a sprinkling of rain in Ramsey, etc. The effect is to put A LOT of extra pressure on qualifying and A LOT of bikes out on track together. I know from bitter experience that you need (especially if out with more than one bike) to get your fast laps in more or less straight away since any cancellations or mechanical problems mean you may struggle at the end of the week otherwise, and an appeal will only work if you've proved you still have the speed.

Additionally, this has reduced the amount of practice available to Newcomers, and believe me no amount of driving round on open roads can provide the feel of the course at full chat. I'm not saying this may have been a factor in any particular crashes, and I appreciate the inconvenience it causes to residents, but given the emphasis we have had on safety and reducing acidents and fatalities it amazes me that progress in this area has gone in exactly the WRONG way.

Re- the use of the MGP as a feeder/experience for potential TT riders. I happen to know Paul has encouraged at least one very experienced short circuit rider to do just that. Perhaps if this was a recognised part of the qualification (eg, either past experience on TT/MGP, within say 5 years, or Irish roads, or you must do the Manx) then the DTL could perhaps offer more support, either financial or some other kind to help with marshal recruitment etc. It is a real problem as we were all very aware at the bottom of Bray last year.
Less people from across, and Manxies have to go to work. Maybe if it was seen as a nursery for TT more people would come to see if they could spot the stars of the future.
I have to say that for many years I never came for the TT, only the Manx and the Southern as I preferred the atmosphere. It's the berries, folks!

Hi Tomcat, totally agree again with some of your points.

You said 'The problem we face is that today it is becoming ever harder to accept fatalities in motorsport. Those of us who have been around the TT/MGP for some time know that sh*t happens and we all know the score (I raced the Manx many times over a period of 20 years). However the mainstream press, health & safety, ambulance chasing lawyers and the Financial Sector who would love to see us consigned to history all have an ever louder voice. Thus I believe we need to take some major steps forward before someone grabs us and forces us to take even more, unpalatable ones.'

I kind of disagree with some of the points. Yes we all know the risks, well those of us who have competed, but sometime I don't think that the vast majority of those around us actually do. They may try to understand why we do it but will never fully understand until they do it themselves. Some may even resent the fact that we do it. This then leads to a feeling of hurt, distrust, and even anger when something does actually happen. As for the ambulance chasing lawyers, all the relatives who are left need to do is say no to their approaches. Maybe this brings up the need for more support after such a tragic event.

As for the financial sector not appreciating the TT, I can only say that one of the major financial companies is a large supporter of the TT, LloydsTSB, even providing finance for a race team. My experience of alot of the finance companies, I used to work for one, is that they use the TT to their advantage, they use various place for hospitality, like the Creg. They even use the TT as a selling point for some. As happens the majority of the time here on the Island, the voices of the minority of the TT haters are heard loud and clear, and those of us who love the TT are very rarely listened to. This I think has to change.

The press will always make out the worst of the TT no matter what happens, and you will always have accidents and fatalities on the course no matter what you do, no matter how many course inspections you are going to have, and no matter the class of rider. The thing is to try to reduce the numbers, but you can not make it totally safe, this I agree with you on. We just have to handle the press better and in a more positive manner, of course not directly after a fatality, but all the time through out the year and across all media.

The amount of cash spent on safety over the last few years is immense, but we need more and we just don't have the cash available to make every single part of the course as safe as people are now expecting. Yes a fatality has happened, yes there are issues with the way the course inspection was carried out, and there are issues with the understanding of what is required from the Clerk of the Course to the marshals out on the track and the problem lays with communication. But we all hope that this is going to change and that things are now going to be put in place. To give you some idea of the cost, the air fence costs a vast amount of cash. For example I think that the Southern club looked at air fence and to do just a few areas around the 4.25 miles were quoted in excess of £10,000 to cover just a few places, so trying to cover all the spots on the TT course, which Paul is doing really well on, and must be congratulated on, would cost millions. Yes I know how much can you put on a life, but the money has to come from somewhere.

As for the restriction of riders to race in the TT, I agree with you that something may have to be done, but making riders do the Manx GP many detract from what the Manx has always been about, a great meeting where anyone in the top twenty riders could win it. To stick i well qualified riders that would be 'automatic' winners I think would destroy the Manx. To use it just the one and only 'qualifier' for the TT is I believe unreasonable. There could be other races included in this qualifying for the TT. What about the Southern, Scarb or many of the Irish races. The problem of new comers is not isolated to the TT alone, it happens at a vast majority of the road races here, in Ireland and also on the big rock. What do they do at Macau? If there is a place for justification of increased safety then there is a beauty, but all the riders and spectators love it.

There is also another problem with forcing people to do the Manx before the TT and that is one of liscencing. The Manx is a National event, this would have to change to make it a qualification for the TT would mean it would have to change to an international event to allow foreign riders to compete, thus increasing costs, insurance, and also entry fees for the races, which I would suggest is another nail in the coffin of the Manx. So you would risk loosing both races and not just the TT if this were to happen? The implications are vast but there is an answer, use other races as a means of qualifying.

I think the organisers spend hour after hour going through the rhemes ans rhemes of application forms to see who is good enough to enter, and past qualification is no guarantee of entry. They look at entries for races all over the world, they look at past results in these races and also in some circumstances ask the clubs and governing bodies of the riders what they think. It is not a simple thing to put an entry in and automatically be accepted. I don't know if I should be saying this but the timekeepers report to the clerk of the course after each session, anyone who looks erratic or times are too slow will be monitored during the sessions to see if they are jumping in too deep or are taking risks. Reports from marshals and sector marshals are also recorded. Anyone found to be riding dangerously or erratic would be talked too and if the Clerk of the Course deems them to be dangerous they will be withdrawn from the meeting.

Even after all of this, the likes of Marc Ramsbotham and Joakim Karlsson, I think would be more than accepted under these grounds. Their times were good and consistent, gradually getting better lap by lap. I personally believe that the accident was just that, an accident. No matter what you do you would not have been able to stop the unfortunate death of the rider. As for the spectators well that is a different matter which I think has already been fully covered in this thread. I totally agree with you on the lack of practice during the week. There must be more....

Please don't get me wrong I am all for making things safer and I think you have some great ideas that should be looked into, but there are problems with making the Manx a qualifyer.

Fair enough Peter, I got the wrong end of the stick with the Sulby/ Cronk-y-Voddy thing, but surely the principle still holds as it was also a lot bumpier than it is now? Really let meself down with that as I do actually know the couse fairly wellTo, correct myself, the 3 fatalities around the Cronk-y-Voddy and 11th milestone section were Drinkwater in '49, Ralph Rensen in '61 and Ian Ogden in '86. I agree that specific steps need to be made to protect spectators, but we must understand it will never be failsafe. If spectators can be killed at road races in the 1920s then they most probably will be in the future, whether it be at the TT or some Indy oval circuit in the States. Of course everything needs to be done to try. This in effect will mean more prohibited areas. There are certainly places on the course that aren't as yet prohibited that I've never watched from as I would not be comfortable there. But surely reducing accidents for the riders can only be good for the spectators too?

You're right, I'm not in the TT/MGP riders database- I don't even ride a bike as I've spent a fair bit of time in the past trying to stick guys back together after accidents which is probably why I'm such a chicken. I don't think that invalidates my opinion!! I am a road race fanatic and I absolutely bloody love the TT. Anyone, like yourself, who has ever raced there is a legend in my book. I may not be totally comfortable with some of the decisions made about the TT but if they ensure that one day I'll be able to sit on a sunny day on the Mountain with my grandchildren watching the bikes I'll be prepared to accept them. I think everyone on this site is basically singing from the same hymn sheet- we are all concerned about the future of the TT.

You're point about practice is an interesting one. Does anyone think that with all today's DVDs and Playstation games that it would be tempting for newcomers to be a bit overconfident too soon. As you say, there is no substitute for the real thing. I know every inch of that place (despite my faux pas!) but there's obviously no way I'd ever get round quick on 2 wheels!

I've also been very interested in all the risk assessment type posts. Part of my job is concerning blood transfusion and its regulation. Until we learnt from the "no blame" ethos of the airline industry things were going nowhere. Why would anyone fess up when they knew they could end up in court? Things are now reported centrally and anonymously and near misses are investigated to try and prevent the actual disasters happening. The change has been unbelievable. The coroner touched on a lot of relevant stuff but for me the major disappointment was the underlying atmosphere were he sought to blame specific individuals when clearly this was a system failure. Of course witnesses became defensive. I suspect there may be other marshals glad the accident didn't happen in their sector, as the same failing systems would probably have been uncovered? This is now the opportunity for concerns to be heard and acted upon. Marshals should feel if they have worries about near misses etc that they will be listened to and acted on.

I know this is drifting away from the original point of the thread but I think I have to agree that the Manx should be seen as a graduation step to the TT. Having said that, I agree that it would not have made sense for someone like Steve Plater to do the Manx first, but he was able to demonstrate considerable ability on the roads already. As with any rule, there will always be exceptions...

A concern I have about the current way entries for the TT are allocated is that newcomers are having to get up to some fairly serious lap speeds in a hurry. If they don't hit 115mph by race day then they probably won't get an entry next time round. Not everyone 'gets it' first time - some might need two or three years to SAFELY reach true TT standard.

The sadly missed Jun Maeda was a perfect example. He started out unspectacularly but learned his trade and after a few years became a top runner. Going through the Manx, people can be given the time, in a low pressure environment, to see how they go on the TT course - on a smaller machine if needs be.

On the subject of international entries at the MGP, I can recall several in recent years. Australian Ken Onus was third in the 400 Newcomers a couple of years ago. There have been 2 or 3 South Africans recently and there were 4 continental riders among the finishers in last year's Newcomers, so this is already happening surely?

Finally, on the subject of fast guys taking replicas away from the lower runners, then you change the way reps are awarded. I've been banging on about this for ages. Instead of awarding them on a percentage of the winner's time, they're given to, say the first 50% of the field. If you have 60 finishers, the top 30 get reps. That way someone competing for a rep is doing so against someone of similar speed and ability, not against the guy at the front. Suerly that would be safer?

Yes, there have always been foreign riders, so there must be some system in place.
I agree about the replica issue. When the lovely Olie won last year, noone got a rep, and it would make sense to change the system, as getting a rep is the only reward a rider can aim for. If not the top 50% then perhaps within 120% of the winner (I think it's within 110% at the moment?)
When I first came to the Manx, there were no sponsprs (well, officially!), and the bikes were considerably different from those at the TT. Nowadays, many of the top guys have bikes capable of winning the TT, and yet we still have others on elderly bikes incapable of keeping up no matter how talented the rider.
Speed is one thing, skill is another. I deplore the current obsession with lap records. The great Bob Mac always said "Win at the slowest possible speed". That's skill.

Just picking up on DCLUCIE's earlier comment regarding, "handling the Press better", did anyone pick up on the letter printed in this weeks MCN from a gentleman who was very much in the proximity of the incident at the 26th.
It is a letter that, rather than criticising the situation shows a compassionate side to the all incident. This i take as a positive angle taken by MCN for once, as perhaps 12 months ago they may possibly have been more drawn to somebody who wanted to voice a more negative aspect to the TT/MGP.
Do we remain cynical towards the MCN following their disgraceful take on marshalling at the TT, or do we, as the paying public ( without who there would be no MCN) and the organisers of the TT and the MGP use the power of the Press to support and help the future of the TT/MGP.

Phil Windrum Wrote:Hilary, I'm glad you didn't see yourself in the elderly category anyway!!!
As an aside I was looking thru an old autograph book the other night. Low and behold I have your autograph (on the same page as Trev Nation, Neil Tuxworth and Chas Mortimer). Got it in the Dundrod paddock and for a small fee I will not even mention what year it was- obviously I was just a wee boy at the time

Phil,I have to admit that it was 1983.Shame I didn't beat Neil as I might have got a works ride
Tomcat's views are brilliantly thought out and I wish he was employed by the ACU as they really need some sensible people working for them.Of course,that brings me,once again,to the TT course licence,as pointed out by Tom Loughridge.Nobody with half a brain can expect 6 race meetings round Mallory Park or similar short circuit,to prepare you for the TT course.It is a pathetic,knee jerk reaction to hopefully let the insurance companies and the public think that something is being done to implement safety measures.The ACU will never admit it is totally useless.Many people posted messages on their website,when it was introduced,and because they did not like all the abuse and derogatory comments,they pulled the plug on the message board.In other words they wanted it swept under the carpet and forgotten about.
Tomcat pointed out the lack of practice nowadays,which is so true.Not everyone liked early mornings,but it was there to use,so there was no excuse for not learning the course or gaining the required amount of laps.The faster laps could be gained in the evening.Of course there was the downside,the extra pressure on marshals,and the disruption to daily life,but today's schedules do put too much pressure on riders.
I do believe that some travel concessions for marshals who come across,would be most helpful and encouraging for them,and for the locals,maybe the same for when they wish to leave the island,for their holidays.
The TT replica system really needs to be overhauled,as the Witch said,as it is extremely discouraging,especially at the MGP,when a really fast rider is so far ahead that nobody else stands a chance.Unfortunately,not everyone is so talented,and it means a great deal to win a replica.
DClucie has some really good points too,and I can understand his way of thinking.
Wouldn't it be great if some of these posters were employed to assist with the TT and MGP,maybe the lack of communication would not exist again.Our will hopefully gain the attention of somebody,but there again !!!

Riders are getting a lot more premium practice now, most of the riders are only on about 2/3 bikes not like the old days when a rider could be trying to set up 6 bikes. Not only this the bikes are more reliable than ever so breakdowns and missing practices is almost a thing of the past.
As for the marshalls being paid where do you stop, my idea would be to allow those who are local marshalls to be given a tax break during the two weeks, a bit like home stay which is Tax free. Marshalls from off Island could be offered fares over on a sliding scale based on the practices/races they attend and have their cards signed by a sector marshall.

FC Wrote:Riders are getting a lot more premium practice now, most of the riders are only on about 2/3 bikes not like the old days when a rider could be trying to set up 6 bikes. Not only this the bikes are more reliable than ever so breakdowns and missing practices is almost a thing of the past.
As for the marshalls being paid where do you stop, my idea would be to allow those who are local marshalls to be given a tax break during the two weeks, a bit like home stay which is Tax free. Marshalls from off Island could be offered fares over on a sliding scale based on the practices/races they attend and have their cards signed by a sector marshall.

FC you make some good points about incentivising Marshals. It's about time those guys were offered more help than they currently get, and in this climate we need all we can get. Many are dedicated souls who will come anyway but some are wondering if it's worth it for the cost and time away with little thanks, and new blood needs to be attracted in as well. All ideas are good in this respect.

However I have to take issue with you on the practice question. I can't speak for the TT as I only did the Manx. In my time there we went from 2 sessions Mon-Tue-Wed-Fri, plus 2 Saturday evenings and an extra long one Thursday afternoon, to one evening session per day (not Sun). That's 10 sessions down to 7 in absolute numbers, and a shortening of the Thursday one. I'm not sure what happened back in the days of setting up 6 bikes - I certainly never saw any of those - but you may be sure that delays to starting the sessions, cancellations, mechanical problems (which are still an issue for the classics) all serve to restrict practice time past what is comfortable. Days past you could more or less pick and choose which sessions you did because you knew you would have enough time barring disasters. The fast boys could do 20-30 laps in practice. Now it can be all you can do to get 7-8. Sessions are more often cancelled nowadays due to weather which we would have ridden in the past - I've been over the mountain following catseyes in practice many times in the past, but now they would cancel a session for that.

There is less practice, fact. Is that good for Newcomers? Is the pressure to qualify in fewer laps (with more bikes on circuit because of less sessions available) conducive to safety?

I think that we have to do something for the marshals. I am not a legal person so I don't know if incentives or benefits would make the marshals an employed person of the , now ACU Events team. If so would this have other ramifications personal Tax and also make them more liable and therefore more at risk of legal action if something goes wrong. On the tax point having an 'offshore' income no matter how small would definitely cause more problems for the UK guys that come to marshal.

But how about this for an idea....

The marshals would have a day off from the races on a rota basis and be guests of the organisers. The full works, just as a thank you. In addition do something like the Marshals dinner but maybe three nights of practice with free tickets to the presentations. Maybe put on a day for marshals on non race days, where Steve Colley could do something the riders do a benefit day for the Marshal association, get some of the freestyle motox guys over. Put something on just for the marshals.

Just a thought.

The main thing that needs to be done, urgently, is to clarify for marshals that, if they do what they have been trained to do, as they have been instructed, and do not do something like shortcuts or breaking rules (laws) etc, they are NOT going to be held responsible for something which happens.
You can only be held responsible for irresponsible actions. This needs to be officially reiterated at a high level.
There also needs to be some way of telling them they are protected by the powers that be, in terms of defence if they are accused, and of damages if something happens to them.

Quote:Riders are getting a lot more premium practice now

With (grudging!) respect - WTF is "premium practice"? The IoM is unique (and has been since the real Nurburgring closed) in being close to unlearnable - at least compared to Brands Hatch et al. It is impossible to have too much practice on the Mountain course, but very easy to have too little. I would suspect that this comment comes from a non-racer, or else one who is/was dangerously complacent about his knowledge of the course.
As for "setting up" bikes, I suspect this is much over-esteemed, as the circuit varies so much in the nature of the surfaces, types of bends, gradients and so on that it is virtually impossible to twitch every bit of the overly-complex suspensions, gearings, tyres etc to be right everywhere. Until the day that all the settings automatically adjust by electronic control that resets them constantly as the circuit unfolds the best policy is to get the basics about right, then concentrate on riding the thing to suit! If you know the course, for the changing sections you can adjust the only control that really matters - the throttle!

While not being so crude as the Courtney fella being of high moral character, I to am a bit mistified as to what this new magical quality practice time is which has been achieved by reducing the practice laps available.

Practice is not only about setting up machinery it is also about the adjustment of rider fitness and getting fit for along hard and physically demanding race on a course that that is not matched anywhere in the world in distance or dificulty for battering the human body and brain.

There cannot possibly be any substitute for the maximum number of lap to get racing fit on that circuit I would derly love to know how half a dozen quality laps could possibly be better than 20 to 30 laps.

Never done the 30 laps mentioned but certainly done 27