Hi Doug, not met you but we have raced the same Classic MGP.
Just a thought (and I am possibly the man refered to) for the greater part, the other classes at the MGP are perhaps more level, even so in those classes I finished top 10 twice in one year on a much lower spec bike than most, the difference in power/bike/rider is now proving far greater in the Classic classes. All classes except Classic are deemed for the best part a level that club/national riders enter, enjoy and compete. Still very fast, of similar bikes and non professional. Classic classes, I appreciate, are open to TT riders and by that statement professional TT riders too. (Yes I know professional riders can ride in the MGP's other classes).
To be beaten by Roy Richardson, Ryan Farquar, Ian Lougher etc etc on similar machinery is fair game. Bring something that is possibly 50% more powerfull and maybe also put a professional TT rider on it (I suppose one must ask would the rider enjoy a race of three, but WSB, BSB ect is sometimes like this).
Yes the races are for classic bikes (some would argue that the majority of the bikes entered are not that old) but I feel something needs to be done to maintain an achievable goal, not easier just achievable.
It is a difficult subject with equally difficult solutions, the concern is it may have an undesired outcome on entries.
See you at the MGP
Ken

My main point is that I dont believe it is actually getting any harder to win a replica, infact I would suggest it has got progressively easier to win a replica in the classic races since Bob Heath retired.

During the period Bob was racing his superior funding and vast talent allowed continued increases in pace every year, i.e. his bike deleloped faster than almost anyone elses and he was the best rider there. Since his retirement the lap and race records stood for the best part of 10 years, while most people's bike would have improved steadily year on year. While this was going on huge sections of the course have been re-surfaced, trees have been cut down and several corners have been re-profiled, plus individual rider's course knowledge would have improved.......... Therefore I would suggest that in 2005 and 2006 a rider who had raced in the senior classic manx for 15 years would have had his/her best opportunity of winning a replica.

In 2007 the lap record and race record was broken but so was the lap and race record for virtually every TT, due in no small part to the changes at Brandish, the change here was felt significant at the TT and surely it would have more effect on a classic bike as they cannot stop or accelerate as quickly as a modern bike.

IMHO the TT riders competing at the manx are being used as scapegoats by people who are frustrated at not being able to win a replica. Show me some statistical evidence to prove that it is harder to win a rep now than in 1996 for example!

I'll see you at the Manx then Doug

Will Loder Wrote:TT riders competing at the manx are being used as scapegoats by people who are frustrated at not being able to win a replica.

Hum, Will I, like you, have a fair amount of replica's, I am not 'frustrated' as you put it.

I may have missed out on a rep last year but was not frustrated in the least. Disappointed maybe.

The point of a level playing field was the point of question, it was not one of frustration, not one of making 'anything' easier and certainly not one borne out of any level of regret.

I do not agree with your statement, but then again you may not agree with mine, thats the way in this world. I would dare to suggest though there are possibly more that would agree with a levelling of the field than would be against it.

See you at the MGP

Ken

Just popping my head in here to say what a great debate, conducted in such a civilised manner. Think I might find a Fair Trade box of chocs each for Will and Doug at the MGP!

thewitch Wrote:Just popping my head in here to say what a great debate, conducted in such a civilised manner. Think I might find a Fair Trade box of chocs each for Will and Doug at the MGP!

Presume I do not qualify for choc's then

Oh, dearie me... hurt feelings... yes... you can have some too!
(Think the boxes might be getting smaller)

What is this "chocolate" stuff you speak of

You can cry all you like, you're not getting ANY, skinny!

Sandy and the boys can have some....

Hmmm Chocolates sound good!

Kenny, sorry if you think that I am directly aiming comments at you, because that isn't really my intention. I know that you have won replicas and I also feel that I should point out that I have never won a replica as a rider and I'm certain that if and when I ride in the manx I will not find it in any way easy. My comments were aimed generally at people who believe that TT riders are making it harder to win a replica (which tends to be people who cant win one).

The point that I am trying to get across is that I BELIEVE that it is no more difficult now to win a replica than it was 10 or 15 years ago. I also believe that all the mathematical evidence would suggest that there is little upward trend in the difficulty of winning a replica especially when offset against constant development of bikes (even the privateer ones) and circuit improvements/modifications.......

If the playing field is not level now then it hasn't been level for a very long time. The reason for recent outcry is the relative fame of the people doing the winning, despite the fact that they probably aren't any better than any of the top classic riders of the last 15years! Let's not forget that Bob Heath was a factory rider and a world class international rider, even the likes of my dad had raced with and beat riders like Kork Ballington..........Is Ryan Farquar any faster than Alan Oversby?? (I dont think so). I've even watched Bob Heath (Seeley G50) beat Lougher, Palmer and Griffiths (Kit 125 Hondas) round Aberdare park on a couple occasions.........

I do however think that it could be argued that true privateers are being put off by the percieved difficulty in competing against "professional riders" while they were less put off by the threat of competing against "fast privateers" even though the reality is that there is little difference in actual speed. This is also difficult to argue as I am certain that most people who have been put off since 2005 are those who cant see the point of wasting money wobbling about at the back of club races to get a TT Cousre license.......I know of 2 such people who wont be at the manx this year for this very reason, despite having their entries accepted

Will Loder Wrote:Hmmm Chocolates sound good!

Kenny, sorry if you think that I am directly aiming comments at you, because that isn't really my intention. I know that you have won replicas and I also feel that I should point out that I have never won a replica as a rider and I'm certain that if and when I ride in the manx I will not find it in any way easy.

.................................... (I have deleted this line and apologised to Will)

I feel that once you commence competing at the MGP your mindset may change.

Thank you for the apology, not needed really but nice all the same. We all have an opinion and to put that opinion on a board such as this means the poster is happy to have their opinion challenged.

See you on the MGP grid........one day soon I trust.

Dear 'The Witch' please save my chocolates until after the MGP too old and chubby as it is right now

Will you have a PM

One other point, and i know i will slightly contradict myself. i don't if many people realise but the Dept of Tourism subsidise the MGP to the point of covering nearly have the cost of the entry fee, so if we have to attract top riders as a way of then attracting the public to the island, then this might be the only way to keep it affordable.As Will said i think the perception of greater speeds is what makes the riders question the rep times. When you are bored Will why don,t you and heff work out the Bob Heath's times against the Ryan times.

Blimey I miss an evening and there’s a load more to take in.
Ken, I can certainly appreciate where you are coming from and I agree it is a very difficult subject. I am all for change (its part of my job) as long as it’s done in the right way and for the right reasons.

Personal opinion I don’t think the difference in machine/power is that much greater in the classics than the modern. Speed trap figures can be a bit misleading however in the ultralightweight Oli Linsdells 400 was 24mph faster than my 125 and only bettered by 4 of the 250’s. The 400 I was with on the road was so much faster I couldn’t keep in his slipstream. The best 400’s are double the power of the worst.
I would put the classes biggest to least difference in this order, Ultralightweight, Lightweight classic, Senior classic, Lightweight, Junior classic, Senior and Junior.
At one of the last CRMC race meetings I did a few years ago Glen English was riding the Molnar Manx in the first race a lead group of 6 riders were all within 10s of each other and about 30s clear of the next rider in an 8 lap race. Glen blew his bike in that race. In the second race he rode Andy’s 350 Lansdown bike. He was about 10s back from the lead group but still nearly 30s up on the next group, which included several super short stroke machines.
In a very roundabout way the point I’m trying to make is that the biggest discrepancy is the riders but this will always be the case with the classics as there is no where to progress to. This is as much of a problem at short circuits as it is at the Manx.
The level playing field is a very objective thing. How do you define level? I think this is entirely down to personal perspective. Personally I think the only bike which has a major advantage is the Patton. I don’t think any of the Honda’s are that much better and would go as far as to say in the junior a good single is better than any Honda. I believe that our Ducati is easily good enough to win, it’s just a shame about the pilot!
I have to agree with Will if you look at the results the classics are more level now than they have ever been, especially in the top half of the field. 10 years ago only the top 5 or 6 were getting replicas out of the best part of 60 finishers that’s less than 5%, now it’s 40%.
I agree the fields are smaller now. Some of this may be due to the “pro’s” at the front but personally I believe that the two biggest impacts have been from the reintroduction of the Honda’s (small decrease 1st year much bigger 2nd and then gradual decline) and the mountain course licence very similar trend to the Honda’s.
What you can do to get numbers back up is the challenge. The only possible answer I have come up with is to run a post classic class concurrently.

Will I have a suspicion as to who one of the 2 riders you mentioned is. If my suspicion is correct it’s a sad day for classic racing.

Shipley I believe that this is the first year this has happened but I could be wrong. If it comes down to a choice of having a few TT pro’s at the front or having a substantially increased entry fee I know which I would chose.

The which you could just cut out the middle man and give the choc’s straight to my wife! For me I would much prefer you to keep on wearing that orange jacket.

On which note can I in advance thank all those who will be marshalling, we couldn’t do it without you. I hope not to meet any of you other than in the beer tent.

Incidentally the MV which started this topic was indeed ridden by Phil Sharp at the Bob Mac it didn’t destroy all who came before it and I don’t expect it to do so at the Manx. I may be proved wrong wouldn’t be the first time.

Last thing, constructive debate like this where as many people as possible can put opinions, thoughts and ideas in the open is how solutions are found and could be very good for the long term future of the Manx.

The one good thing that is clear in all this debate is that there is a real passion to keep the manx going. If nobody mentions and discusses new ideas then we can't complain if non of then become reality. I know the MMCC are aware of the feeling and it is a difficult situation to keep everybody happy. I still think its a priviledge that we can run on sutch a famous course

Yes that is THE single most important thing in all of this not only with regard to the Classic races at the Manx but the moderns too.
The Manx GP and it's future is of prime concern and importance and everyone involved should play a part in that.

cargo Wrote:Yes that is THE single most important thing in all of this not only with regard to the Classic races at the Manx but the moderns too.
The Manx GP and it's future is of prime concern and importance and everyone involved should play a part in that.

when i raced my *finishers*medal was as good as a rep to me!
got 5 out of 7 rides.
still have pride of place in my trophy cabinet.
den

Back to the Original topic of this thread Gary Johnson is riding the MV!

Ooooo... that'll be a sight to see... wonder if he'll do any stoppies when he comes in the pit return lane!!

There's never going to be a simple answer to this one is there?

When I retired from the Manx the stupid course licence was one reason but another was the increasing difficulty of getting a Rep without spending a fortune on horsepower. The TT course is one that rewards bhp like no short circuit due to its long flat-out sections. Several times I have out-ridden people on twisty sections just to see them feck off on the next straight or hill. I accept the likes of Bob Heath would still have been up there bashing lap records out without the benefit of Paton/MV budgets but that is the exception, and the more horsepower monsters there are in the event the less chance for those of us to gain that elusive Rep. Even the new Manxes/G50s don't help, with big-budget teams who can burn up 5 engines in a week and just slot in a new one.

Steve Linsdell said a little while ago, in a very frank and open interview, that he regarded budget as just one tool for winning a race and the likes of buying a Paton was an option open to anyone with the money - if they didn't like it, well, tough, that was racing. My view is that may work in professional racing, BSB or TT and so forth, but the Manx isn't the place for it. This is the event where there is no prize money and riders foot all the bills themselves. It's an amateurs event and I believe rewarding the pros to the detriment of the true amateurs will result in more of them (us) abandoning the event, which is already short of entries.

So what's the answer? Smokey125 posted a very intelligent critique of some of the pros and cons. You can't simply put the multis in their own class, since the new Manxes aren't far short of their speed (or cost) and you'd simply scoop up the Weslakes, Nortons and Triumphs with the exotica. A British/foreign split wouldn't work because of the Ducatis and Aermacchis. An age or cost classification would be impossibe to achieve. So as much as I don't like people buying horsepower I don't see a realistic way of stopping it.

How about re-allocating the Replicas then? If the differential is the issue then you could nullify that by awarding, say, silver reps to the top 25% of the field and bronze reps to the next 25% of finishers. That to me would be fairer than the current situation where an exceptionally fast race by a TT star on a megabucks machine can deny Reps to others who would have won them in other years.

I would also want to deny Manx entries to people who have ridden the TT in the last 3 years. My view is if they are good enough to ride the TT that's where they should be, not pot-hunting in an amateur event. If they retire from the TT, fine, enter the Manx, but don't use it as a bit of extra practice for the TT and mess up the trophies for those who only do the Manx.

So, for anybody who wanted suggestions, there's 2.

Tomcat, your idea about how the reps get awarded pretty much ties in with an idea I had earlier in the thread but i got my backside kicked over it

I understand that it's not a perfect concept and the argument against it was that it devalued the achievement of winning a rep. I've never been a racer, so it's not for me to say whether that's true or not. However, the Manx needs to attract more visitors (PP's words) and having exotica ridden by TT stars certainly helps in that respect. More punters also = more potential marshals.

As an example, I wasn't intending to come to the Manx this year (skint...) but when I heard the news about the MV I knew I couldn't NOT come, so the plastic's gonna get tortured some more!