John Foster Wrote:In fact Bill Snelling and Larry should get cracking on it straight away.

Not me John.

This started as a thread relating to the nostalgia of the Parade Lap as once was and as might be again.

I've been very disappointed by the attitude of some contributors, esp. you Dave C - to me, the nostalgia of a Parade Lap is indivisible from the Mountain Circuit.

Up and down the Mooragh Prom in Ramsey does absolutely nothing for me.

Sorry!!

I'm very much with Larry on this. The Ramsey idea sounds nice enough but as well as, not instead of a lap of the TT course.

I don't want to fall out with anyone over this but I said earlier in this thread that the motor cycle world is poor at honouring it's past and I think the point is proven.

The problem with the parade is that it was treated as an afterthought rather than as an attraction in it's own right. Setting riders off at random in batches so iconic machines and riders get 'lost' in a gaggle of machines was not the way to do it.

I want to see the heroes of the past (by which I mean anyone brave enough to have raced the TT course) on period machinery in their element - that being the TT course.

larryd Wrote:

John Foster Wrote:In fact Bill Snelling and Larry should get cracking on it straight away.

Not me John.

This started as a thread relating to the nostalgia of the Parade Lap as once was and as might be again.

I've been very disappointed by the attitude of some contributors, esp. you Dave C - to me, the nostalgia of a Parade Lap is indivisible from the Mountain Circuit.

Up and down the Mooragh Prom in Ramsey does absolutely nothing for me.

Sorry!!

I am sorry you are disapointed in what I have said Larry. I know how much you love the old bikes and I do appreciate them just as much. But there are major problems with the parade lap. Maybe these can be ironed out and maybe it can return to be a major part of the TT, I do hope that this can happen. What I think we are trying to say is that the history of the TT deserves a heck of a lot more than just a parade lap.

You know how much I love your old BM and I am always down there trying to help out as much as I can. But I can see a problem with the parade. This doesn't take away from my love for the old bikes, the Castrol R and the roar that used to greet me as a kid on the wall of Braddan Bridge and up on the Mountain.

Don't forget the past is not just the past, it is what makes you who you actually are, and the old bikes are what is to blame for me racing. That together with a bet in the pub that I would be scared of being a passenger . So you see I do think that they deserve their place, but the parade is, unfortunately I believe a thing of the past. Yet another thing to be talked about over a pint.

I am sorry if I have upset you Larry this is not my intention and never was. Lets just not loose the history just because we lost the parade.

When visitors go to the Island for the first time, just to drive around the Mountain Course is like a holy pilgrimage. The place names around the course are engraved in motorcycle history like the famous corners at Le Mans or Monza. The place has a reverence for enthusiasts like the Targa Florio or the Mille Miglia for car people. To get to this position where the whole course is like a sacred site is no mean accomplishment. My concern is that an event of such significance to the history of motorcycle road racing “appears” to be being undervalued. It is one thing to create history but it is another to preserve and revisit those traditions which have been hard won. It is my personal disappointment to watch as this wonderful heritage is seemingly allowed to wither and die before our eyes. Such valuable collections of memorabilia as the museum at the Bungalow and the contents of Gwen’s house are allowed to disperse without any effort by the IOM government to preserve these treasures. Nostalgia is about recording history, preserving the physical evidence and regularly revisiting it. Against all the odds the TT is still taking place and we have many dedicated paid and unpaid enthusiasts to thank for that, but what has gone before really must be retained and celebrated in some way. Currently there is no core location for visitors to relive the glorious past of the TT, they are left to wander around wondering why the past is ignored. This thread has drifted towards specific events to recreate the past but surely the TT needs a central location in the form of a museum and meeting place for all enthusiasts both young and old. This needs a long term vision which in years to come will be respected by both the visitors and the residents of the IOM as far sighted and eventually beneficial to all.

Sticky,

I dont disagree with anything yoy say, but its clear that Mountain Course parade laps
are no longer supported by enough people
By this, I mean officialdom and , more importantly, the marshalls
What some of us are trying to suggest is really a "better than nothing" solutuion

Personally, I feel that we hould all isten to the marshalls on this one

boakesey Wrote:I'm pretty certain Tony East at ARE in Kirk Michael would be interested and would also have lots of useful contacts.
Don't know if he uses this board, but he'd certainly be a good person to get on board.

I spent some time with Tony during this year's Manx. It seems that for next year (the VMCC Manx Rally) the IOM Section of the VMCC will be organising the event, rather than from the HQ.
Tony admitted that that such an arrangement would be a huge task for a small band of volunteers but it WILL be done.
The VMCC has over 16,000 members, world wide and a good neucleus of historic race bikes and riders.
I fel sure that with the right sort of "official encouragement" the VMCC could be a valuable contributor to the sort of event we are discussing for the TT.

MV Wrote:Sticky,

I dont disagree with anything yoy say, but its clear that Mountain Course parade laps
are no longer supported by enough people
By this, I mean officialdom and , more importantly, the marshalls
What some of us are trying to suggest is really a "better than nothing" solutuion

Personally, I feel that we hould all isten to the marshalls on this one

What has to be remembered is that the marshals and officials tend to become a bit weary after a full race programme, myself included, and it's not a slight against the parade participants.

I do actually enjoy seeing the old timers but it could be better organised that's for sure.

To dismiss the parade out of hand for the future is being negligent to our heritage. There have been many highlights and seing Georg Meir, John Surtees and Geoff Duke and co. on the course were some of those for someone too young to have seen them actually race.

I think the Mooragh Park suggestion is a good one, but I still think you would struggle to get top class exhibits and great riders to support it without the carrot of a lap of the Mountain Course.

I just can't help agreeing with Don Simons comments and observations. I think that the TT and its heritage are far too valuable to the Island, its people and all of the legions of motorsport fans worldwide, to be left in the hands of government officials with no real love or understanding of what they actually have custody of. Perhaps it's high time that the whole thing was given over to a trust, made up of a cross section of motivated interested parties who report to the Government. They could be self funding and have ultimate authority when dealing with heritage issues?

as an ex clubmans TT.manx G.P. and TT rider,and many parades when run by the great alan robinson.heres my bit.there was never a problem getting entries for the parade.while alan was running it.after it was taken away from him?it was allowed to slowly die.i too went to goodwood.a fantastic show except for the bikes,these seem to be treated as the very poor relations.and this year was notable for the number of retirements.freddie spencer was flown over from the states only to be given a 650 triumph to ride ! i am told he got one lap in.what a way to treat him.a moto-guzzi was turned down but 2 650 triumphs were found room for bizarre!.there are so many bikes around but whoever organized this hadnt a clue where to find them.sammy miller could have told them.but i was told he wasnt invited till to late to make the arrangements.if we are to have a parade it must be assembled by someone who knows where bikes are in europe as well. that leaves sammy or alan cathcart .we need a guzzi V8 etc.these two know where to find all these type of machines and owners.although i think they would blanch when they saw the steam packet brochure.TTcourse or ramsey? the TT course seems to have problems finding a slot and marshals .why not a small circuit up the sprint course and round.a chance for the punters to get close to all the machines in the mooragh park.

T-M you have made things clear that although we are trying to come up with a solution to bring the history of the TT alive, you believe that the majority of people wouldn't be bothered if they don't get a lap in. I really do hope this is not the case. Unfortunately this is obviously the attitude which may have killed it all off in the first place though.

It needs support if its going to work, a place to start, a small event that can prove itself and grow into a fully recognised event is what is needed. Then maybe, just maybe we can get people to stop and support it over the mountain course.

It just needs a starting point and the support of everyone........

It has my support of course, not sure what you mean about attitude and killing what off though? I am not against this excellent idea at all and I think I have made that clear also.
All I am saying is that it would be a shame to put a lot of work into something which may not attract the numbers and quality to make it the success it deserves to be because, although it appeals to us as punters, it may not appeal to the people who have the machinery and the personalities. That would be tragic because it would die through lack of interest!
Perhaps polling potential participants would be a good starting point?

The bottom line is that if nobody does anything, we will get nothing
Suerly it has to be worth a try?

Of course it's worth a try, but if you want it to succeeed you need to do the background work. How many great ideas fail because they go off half cocked? This is a unique opportunity to make something great, it just needs careful planning is all I'm trying to say!

You would only get one shot at making it a success, if it was a cock up the support may not be there next time.

What concerns me is the basic philosophy of nostalgia. We who support the preservation of and the celebration of the TTs past should not be slaves to obsessive nostalgia. In fact it can equally be said that there are elements in the TT organisation who are prisoners of the present. Of course neither approach in productive, it is the dialectic that we need or in other words the juxtaposition or interaction of conflicting ideas. Nothing will be achieved by pushing in opposite directions; my only worry is that currently an imbalance exists.

"We inhereit from our ancestors gifts so often taken for granted... Each of us contains within... this inheritance of soul. We are links between the ages, containing past and present expectations, sacred memories and future promise."
Edward Sellner

boakesey Wrote:

DCLUCIE Wrote:OK then the idea of Ramsey seems to be one thats supported by all. Next all we need is

3) Contacts for all the Vintage clubs so we can write to them to see if they would be interested as so many have days already during TT fortnight.

5) I know that we could approach a few people who may even sponsor the event. Could ask Paul Dedman in Ramsey to help out, maybe even get Pirelli involved as I am sure it would be great to get Griffiths and his old man out again.

I'm pretty certain Tony East at ARE in Kirk Michael would be interested and would also have lots of useful contacts.
Don't know if he uses this board, but he'd certainly be a good person to get on board.

I am Very Interested to read the comments on this forum.many of which follow my line of thinking.Im only to pleased to help in anyway i can.
Tony East

It never seems to be transparent how much the IOM government makes or loses out of the TT or MGP. The figures could be published somewhere but I can't find them.
For instance the Victorian government in Australia lost A$ 40.1 million on the 2008 F1 GP in Melbourne and lost A$4 million on the MotoGP at Phillip Island. These figures are tabled in the Victorian parliament for debate and comment; does anyone know if a similar openness applies in the IOM?
To my mind the above illustrates that governments (i.e. the people) in various parts of the world are willing to invest in events that draw attention, tourism and business to their area, even if it means a loss on the project.
Thinking people realise that intangible benefits flow from the attractions of history, climate, sightseeing, food and special events. In the case of the IOM we can cross off climate and food but all the others are pretty damn good.
If the figures are available and reveal that the IOM actually makes a profit out of the TT (wash my mouth with soap and water) then it would seem like a good idea to invest some of this into the future by preserving a bit of the past.

This article says 7 million pounds :
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving...486101.ece

Like so many of the figures in this piece I think the 7 million is rubbish, I guess it would be inaccurate by now anyway. The date of September 2004 on this piece shows how long ago it actually was much like this thread this figure is history.

Shoot me down if I am talking rubbish;but IMHO any event of this type should be organised on a weekend away from the TT and Manx; when visitors are able to book accomodation for 1/2/3 nights ; Steam Packet fares are cheaper; and all the great people who work so hard at the TT & Manx can also attend.

What really amazes me is that everyone speaks of the cost of the TT and how much they can get back from it. Surely this is such a selfish attitude to something that was going down the pan in the 80's and 90's, thats if we were really honest about it. There has also been so much spent on safety on the course, with air fence and wraps for trees and the street lighting covers, I am sure that there are so many of you out there that don't really know how much is spent. So lets put it this way, if you thought that just one of those air fence's was worth about 3 grand, would you think that this is exspensive? well I am sure it is nearly three or four times that just for one air fence section. I believe this is money well spent and we should be spending more.

If we are saying we need to take care of our history, we also need to take care of the present, or there will not be any history made for future generations to look back on and love the races as much as we have or have done in the past.

To just say that the TT is loosing its heritage, well it has been since the late 80's, and no one really gave a damm about it then because the TT, in so many eyes, was an event of the past and not one of the future and unfortunately there are so many out there that still feel like this. But due to an enormous amount invested we are slowly getting the TT back to what it was, by no means are we there yet but, we are at least going in the right direction, and it is not until the future of the TT has been safe guarded, that you will get the ability to look at something special to celebrate the great history and heritage that the the TT deserves around the very course that we all know and love.

Until this time I think you will have to be saticefied with something outside the course and maybe even outside of the TT week itself. I would hate it being like this, but it maybe the only option available with so much else going on during race week especially if you consider that it is usually the same people involved in the TT organisation that are willing to get their hands 'dirty' organising or being involved in other events.

It is, as I am sure the Witch will vouch, so easy to point the finger from afar and not really understand what goes on here all year around and the struggles against those that want the TT stopped once and for all. It is far more difficult than some of you can imagine, and it is far more troublesome than the few letters or newspaper threads you see locally.