Hi All,

I don't know how this actually works so I have no idea if this is a problem for anyone. But it seems to me as though there is a cold wind blowing already concerning appearance cash for some and not others, and also how much.

http://www.iomtoday.co.im/your-shout/TT-...4845991.jp

That first post is a belter! The DTL has a policy for the distribution of appearance fees which is fully accountable and meets the stringent requirements of the Isle of Man Governments Financial Regulations.

The DTL has a budget for appearance fees. This budget is managed by the TT Festival & Motorsport Arrangement Group who negotiate with riders and teams to contest the TT and contract them to fulfill certain responsibilities through a contract devised by the Attorney General’s chambers.

For the record having read the iomonline piece it is probably worth stating that Klaus Klaffenbock never 'walked away from his first TT with over £20k of taxpayers money' nor has he in any subsequent years. Nothing of the sort.

Ben and Tom Birchall have never 'said to the organisers they needed a bike so the IOM Government bought them a £20k bike for TT.' That is a ludicrous statement from a severely ill informed individual.

Regards

Paul

It would appear that some of those posters in the newspaper are getting muddled up between appearance money and financial assistance. The top guys should be paid as much as the budget can afford in appearance money, in my opinion they deserve every penny of it.
Down the line it is going to be more difficult, if you help one and not another with financial assistance, there are bound to be endless debates and jealousies about the equity of the situation.
Could I be so bold as to suggest that it would be a practical and even handed help to all those at the very bottom to quietly remove the TT Course License nonsense which is a big impost on the up and coming riders? Just go and ask a few of them.

The Isle of Man news "your shout" definately attract the "TT haters", and your right Paul, that first post really is a belter! I suspect this is nothing but a wind up- ignore it and it will die a natural death.
Having said that Paul, any chance of a fully kitted paid for bike for Olie?- only joking of course And Don, agree with you about the course licence, but it seems fairly cast in stone now.

I have never understood why there is so much secrecy over who gets what at the TT or at any other meeting for that matter.

The organisers will pay what they can afford to the riders that they think will bring in the most revenue. There is an accountant somewhere that has worked it all out.

I get my little bit of travel allowance and if I suddenly lapped at 120mph became good looking and a lot younger overnight I would be asking for as much as I could get. (sadly I don't think it will happen).

With regard to the TT course licence, I think that we should go back to qualifying for the international licence and scoring points over 2 seasons to keep it. I don't think that anyone should be allowed to enter the TT if they haven't shown that they are good enough. The main problems with the TT course licence is that:

a) you can finish last in all your races and still qualify for the licence.

b) if you have a bad start to the season and pick up an injury you may not be able to get enough meetings in to qualify for the following season. It should be based on results over 2 seasons.

Anyway back to the thread.
Tell everyone what everyone is getting then there will not be any problems with exaggeration and speculation.

The TT course licence is a red herring.........................

It was NEVER intended as a measure of ones skill or ability.

The problems that lead to the introduction of the TT course licence lie in the pathetic ACU race licencing system.

EG..................to get an ACU race licence NO medical is required that in its self is is reason enough to introduce the TT course licence It is quite disgracful the the ACU issue race licences without the need of a medicial.

An ACU race licence is I believe valid for 3 years so it is entirely possible to obtain ones race licence and not sit or ride a bike for near as damned 3 full years and then enter a race ! Once again a disgraceful situation.

Little wonder that the ACU came under pressure to do something. But of course to save face and to avoid a complete overhaul of their race licence systems.................it was easier to just target those who need their race licence to compete on the TT course.

The TT course licence requirement for TT riders is a nothing in terms of doing the required number of meeting especially given that most of them are fulltime professional riders who race week in week out to make a living................for a TT rider the course licence is a NOTHING it means nothing and it achieves nothing..........

Now it is a little more difficult for MGP competitors who are on the whole guys and girls who do not make a living from racing and for whom the extra cost of doing six meetings can for some be difficult. But if you really want to then somehow you will get there.

But please please please get it out of your heads the TT course licence is and never was intended as a measure of skill talent or ability to compete on the TT course................it's sole function is to provide evidence of a medicailly fit rider being currently actively competing in motorcycle racing. PERIOD


Rant over normal service resumed

cargo Wrote:The TT course licence is a red herring.........................

It was NEVER intended as a measure of ones skill or ability.

The problems that lead to the introduction of the TT course licence lie in the pathetic ACU race licencing system.

EG..................to get an ACU race licence NO medical is required that in its self is is reason enough to introduce the TT course licence It is quite disgracful the the ACU issue race licences without the need of a medicial.

An ACU race licence is I believe valid for 3 years so it is entirely possible to obtain ones race licence and not sit or ride a bike for near as damned 3 full years and then enter a race ! Once again a disgraceful situation.

Little wonder that the ACU came under pressure to do something. But of course to save face and to avoid a complete overhaul of their race licence systems.................it was easier to just target those who need their race licence to compete on the TT course.

The TT course licence requirement for TT riders is a nothing in terms of doing the required number of meeting especially given that most of them are fulltime professional riders who race week in week out to make a living................for a TT rider the course licence is a NOTHING it means nothing and it achieves nothing..........

Now it is a little more difficult for MGP competitors who are on the whole guys and girls who do not make a living from racing and for whom the extra cost of doing six meetings can for some be difficult. But if you really want to then somehow you will get there.

But please please please get it out of your heads the TT course licence is and never was intended as a measure of skill talent or ability to compete on the TT course................it's sole function is to provide evidence of a medicailly fit rider being currently actively competing in motorcycle racing. PERIOD


Rant over normal service resumed

cargo you are very miss guided.

1/ you do have to have a medical for a acu licence and take a training course and pass to get an acu novice licence.

2/acu licence is ONLY valid for one year not three.

3/ any acu licence holder over the age of 55 has to have a medical every year and eye sight.

4/ an eye sight test is required every 3 years think its 6/6 to pass.

5/ if you do not renew your licence after 3 years you lose it and start again as a novice

6/ any one applying for a mountain course licence MUST have a medical.

as for the course licence being a red herring well maybe. BUT when i,am riding the t.t course at least i know every one out there has earnt the right to be there and should be up to speed because they are race fit. i dont think this was the case before the licence was introduce.

thats just my veiw of the course licence its here we have to live with it or you dont ride the t.t course.

by the way i know the course licence was reviewed a while ago at a road race committee meeting.......and a few folks at that meeting tried for a reduction in the amount of meetings to qualify for a course licence.....unfortunately it was rejected.

all the best andy

the TT course licence was brought out for the MGP to stop people in their 1st or 2nd year of racing from riding at the Manx. I agree with that.

It will also stop the once a year rider who just wants to ride around the TT course.I also agree with that.

I am sure that the riders at the TT should have to have. an international licence and they should have to qualify for it by scoring points in other meetings.

I'm sure that Cargo will check his facts in future before going on one of his rants

Its a brave man who calls Cargo very misguided!

Unless he is of course?

I will be very suprised if he isin this case.....

andy kirk Wrote:

cargo Wrote:The TT course licence is a red herring.........................

It was NEVER intended as a measure of ones skill or ability.

The problems that lead to the introduction of the TT course licence lie in the pathetic ACU race licencing system.

EG..................to get an ACU race licence NO medical is required that in its self is is reason enough to introduce the TT course licence It is quite disgracful the the ACU issue race licences without the need of a medicial.

An ACU race licence is I believe valid for 3 years so it is entirely possible to obtain ones race licence and not sit or ride a bike for near as damned 3 full years and then enter a race ! Once again a disgraceful situation.

Little wonder that the ACU came under pressure to do something. But of course to save face and to avoid a complete overhaul of their race licence systems.................it was easier to just target those who need their race licence to compete on the TT course.

The TT course licence requirement for TT riders is a nothing in terms of doing the required number of meeting especially given that most of them are fulltime professional riders who race week in week out to make a living................for a TT rider the course licence is a NOTHING it means nothing and it achieves nothing..........

Now it is a little more difficult for MGP competitors who are on the whole guys and girls who do not make a living from racing and for whom the extra cost of doing six meetings can for some be difficult. But if you really want to then somehow you will get there.

But please please please get it out of your heads the TT course licence is and never was intended as a measure of skill talent or ability to compete on the TT course................it's sole function is to provide evidence of a medicailly fit rider being currently actively competing in motorcycle racing. PERIOD


Rant over normal service resumed

cargo you are very miss guided.

1/ you do have to have a medical for a acu licence and take a training course and pass to get an acu novice licence.

2/acu licence is ONLY valid for one year not three.

3/ any acu licence holder over the age of 55 has to have a medical every year and eye sight.

4/ an eye sight test is required every 3 years think its 6/6 to pass.

5/ if you do not renew your licence after 3 years you lose it and start again as a novice

6/ any one applying for a mountain course licence MUST have a medical.

as for the course licence being a red herring well maybe. BUT when i,am riding the t.t course at least i know every one out there has earnt the right to be there and should be up to speed because they are race fit. i dont think this was the case before the licence was introduce.

thats just my veiw of the course licence its here we have to live with it or you dont ride the t.t course.

by the way i know the course licence was reviewed a while ago at a road race committee meeting.......and a few folks at that meeting tried for a reduction in the amount of meetings to qualify for a course licence.....unfortunately it was rejected.

all the best andy

A quick check of the ACU website reveals that I am correct in what I said.
An ACU licence application form only requires the applicant to sign a medicial declaration........nothing more...............a race licence applicant only needs a medicial under the following conditons.

"IF
• you are applying for an International licence of any discipline.
• you are aged 70 or over and are applying for a Road Race, Scooter Road Race, Supermoto, Sprint & Hillclimb, Drag,
Pocket Bike, or Track Racing Licence.
• you are being treated for diabetes.
• the ACU Medical Panel has requested that you have a medical examination and eyesight report."

Also while the actual licence may well be only valid fo a year it is the case that

"National licence holders who have allowed their licence to lapse for 3 years or more and have not competed at a
Road Race event in this period, will be required to complete the competitor training course before resuming competition at Clubman level."

So one race every 3 years and you keep yoiur licence

Misguided....................... I think not

Have a good look at the ACU site and its all there inblack and white

I don’t really get your point cargo. Ok you don’t need a medical to get an ACU licence and if you let it lapse for a couple of years you can re-apply at the same level.
I have looked through the MCUI form and at a quick glance I didn’t see anywhere where you have to record your previous years racing results. In which case you could just keep reapplying for your licence do your medical each year and have not raced for 5, 10, 15 or even more years!

So really the only difference between the licences is the medical.

My personal opinion is that the TT licence had nothing to do with the TT or TT riders but was aimed at MGP competitors. It does prove that you have been racing in the last year which neither ACU or MCUI licence does.

Does it make a rider more prepared to face the challenges of racing on the mountain course, no!
Does the fact you’ve passed a medical make you more prepared to race the mountain course? On the basis of what I’ve seen in all aspects of my life over the last few years, no.

You make my point for me...................

The Course licence achieves very little in fact it's main contribution is that it forces ACU licenced TT course competitors to have a medicial.............something which ALL MCUI competitors have had for years anyway............

The TT course licence is evidence of the failings of ACUs licencing system..truth be told all it needed was a chage n the wording of the ACU licence application..............and the same results could have been achieved with the added benefit that ALL ACU licence holders would have a medicial.

And lets not forget that MCUI licence holders arrive on the IOM with road racing experience...................it is entirely possible for an ACU licence holder to arrive on the IOM having never set eyes on a road race. IF it was the purpose of the TT course licence to prepare riders for the " challenges of racing on the mountain course" then perhaps it should include a requirment to compete in a road race or two.
Clearly it isn't

I askeed this very question of the ACU and was told we (ACU) know nothing of racing in Ireland...................how dare they then continue to licence us

I believe that the ACUs TT course licence is in direct contravention of FIM rules regarding the issuing of a licence to riders from another country..................and perhaps it's time someone took that issue up with the FIM?

The only saving grace of the TT course licence is that all the money raised goes into road race safety.

Cargo maybe you should do something about i don't think you will have any joy but in defence of the licence i do know someone who never used to do any other meetings from one Manx to the next on till the licence was introduced he still did 110 though that's sorted now i also expressed my disapproval of the licence to a travelling marshall to which he said but you don't have to pick up the pieces up do you i cant argue with that.

The tragic consequences of letting a few riders out onto the course with no recent race experience, despite declaring that they had, brought in the course licence!

The plain fact is that nobody should be on the TT course unless they are up to race speed and awareness. The more you race the more competent you are. There may be exceptions but how can you tell who they are in a fair manner.

What happens in the event of a major incident and it is found that the competitor involved shouldn't have been on the circuit?? This has happened fairly recently on a few occassions with sad results.

There is more than just competitor selfishness involved here. As the 'cregnybaa' say's, the trauma suffered by some spectators and marshals who have never seen a major incident before is considerable. Not to mention officials who have to deal with family and friends etc.

Until there is an alternative to the TT course licence that works, we are rightly stuck with it in my opinion.

Sorry but I feel very strongly on this subject!

Although it has all been said before in the longest thread in history; the TT Course License was hastily conceived, inequitable and highly unpopular. It is worrying indeed to feel that anything is 'cast in stone', 'stuck with it' or 'we have to live with it'. The TT Course License can be altered or cancelled at the stroke of a pen just as it was created (under dubious circumstances), nothing is fixed. Anything that is created under coercion or by knee jerk reaction is rarely good and needs to be changed.

"All human situations have their inconveniences. We feel those of the present but neither see nor feel those of the future; and hence we often make troublesome changes without amendment, and frequently for the worse."
Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790)

With all this talk about appearence money and licencess makes me think about Mike Hailwoods comeback in 1979. Mike actually told me that he did not have racing licence, or had not filled in, or signed anything.!!.

Sorry 1978 !.

This is going to shock a few of you. I totally agree with what the course licence is trying to achieve. I fully believe that there should be some level of competence achieved before getting accepted for the TT AND that this level should be maintained if you wish to compete in the TT.

Maybe the way that they have gone about it is wrong, maybe all of us can agree with that, but I am also sure that everyone would believe that if someone races week in and week out or when ever they are able to, then they would be more capable of keeping up with the pace of the riders, than someone else who hardly races at all year to year and still gets a TT ride.

I think the idea mentioned about the current licence having points scoring to maintain levels of compitency and different events having different scores, based on the course and also the level of competition, is a great idea. This maybe a better idea than the TT course licence but also it should help overseas riders prove themselves before they go through the exspence of getting here and the officals having to exclude them because they are not up to scratch. I also believe that this will help riders keep a track of what they need to do and organisers having clear information about a riders capabilities and make the entrance process less complicated.

As for appearance money, I believe this is standard all over the place, maybe how it is spread around may need looking into but I am not that knowlagable on this subject or how it works, but do believe that the so called little guys should also get a huge slice, all are heroes to me not just the top few.

Can anyone tell me if there is any other race or course or track in the world that requires an extra licence?
For instance:
A Macau Licence
A Daytona Licence
A Tandragee Licence
A Billown Licence
A Brands Hatch Licence
I know there are none in Australia or New Zealand, the national or international licence covers all the issues mentioned previously.
So why could one ask is the IOM so very special that it has to have a special extra licence requirement placed on it by an overseas organisation. Are their normal roadracing licencing requirements not enough? By default should not the ACU road racing licence be upgraded to cover the deficiencies which the perceived need for the TT Course Licence indicates?
I promise not to post again as this has moved away from the purpose of this thread, appearance money.Sorry about that.

Don Simons Wrote:Can anyone tell me if there is any other race or course or track in the world that requires an extra licence?
For instance:
A Macau Licence
A Daytona Licence
A Tandragee Licence
A Billown Licence
A Brands Hatch Licence
I know there are none in Australia or New Zealand, the national or international licence covers all the issues mentioned previously.
So why could one ask is the IOM so very special that it has to have a special extra licence requirement placed on it by an overseas organisation. Are their normal roadracing licencing requirements not enough? By default should not the ACU road racing licence be upgraded to cover the deficiencies which the perceived need for the TT Course Licence indicates?
I promise not to post again as this has moved away from the purpose of this thread, appearance money.Sorry about that.

I'd have said that the physical requirement on man and machine, the type of road and the race distance are greater than any other event.

There is apparently an open invitation to come up with a viable alternative from the MMCC, but nothing has been suggested that is workable as far as I am aware. That's the only reason that we are stuck with it, until an alternative is suggested.