For anyone who is interested I pulled the following places used by the F1 championship off Wikipedia

Tourist Trophy, Isle of Man, Vila Real, Portugal; Ulster Grand Prix, Dundrod (Northern Ireland), Dutch TT Assen (Netherlands);, Brno (Czechoslovakia) Zolder (Belgium) , Montjuich (Spain); Hockenheim (Germany), Misano (Italy); Jerez (Spain); Imatra (Finland); Hungaroring (Hungary); Sugo (Japan); Donington Park (England). Kouvola (Finland); Pergusa (Italy);

Not sure how many of these would be still in use or considered road circuits (barring the obvious).

Sam

It would be shortsighted in my opinion to leave Australia, New Zealand, the USA and maybe even Canada out of the picture.  Especially in the long term.  There's just too big of a market there.  Now if we can just do away with the nanny state mentality and lock all the attorneys in a room for the duration we might have a chance.

This is the original article from the old site when the news broke in 2011:

http://www.iomtt.com/News/2011/03/16/Isl...nfirm.aspx

I think it's highly unlikely any circuits from the old F1 championship will come under consideration unless the country they're in is deemed to have some potential commercial benefit to the IOM.

I'd love to see a major bike race back at Bathurst in Aus.  They have all the infrastructure necessary as it hosts the country's biggest car race.  The USA would be an ideal market to crack but there are problems in doing that.  American sport is very insular.  The baseball championship is called the 'World Series' even though no-one else plays it (apart from the Japanese).  The winners of the Superbowl are declared World Champions although only American teams can contest it.  The racing philosophy is embedded in oval racing to the extent that even now, Formula One struggles to get a toe hold.

If Bernie can't get a foot in the door what chance do the DED have?

And can you imagine how the lawyers would decend on it if there was ever an incident like the Bray Hill crash from last year?

(10-12-2014, 12:54 AM)sticky Wrote: This is the original article from the old site when the news broke in 2011:

http://www.iomtt.com/News/2011/03/16/Isl...nfirm.aspx

I think it's highly unlikely any circuits from the old F1 championship will come under consideration unless the country they're in is deemed to have some potential commercial benefit to the IOM.

I'd love to see a major bike race back at Bathurst in Aus.  They have all the infrastructure necessary as it hosts the country's biggest car race.  The USA would be an ideal market to crack but there are problems in doing that.  American sport is very insular.  The baseball championship is called the 'World Series' even though no-one else plays it (apart from the Japanese).  The winners of the Superbowl are declared World Champions although only American teams can contest it.  The racing philosophy is embedded in oval racing to the extent that even now, Formula One struggles to get a toe hold.

If Bernie can't get a foot in the door what chance do the DED have?

And can you imagine how the lawyers would decend on it if there was ever an incident like the Bray Hill crash from last year?

Interesting thoughts.  A race at Bathurst would be fantastic but Australia is a tiny market and is the logistics costs would be huge for the return.  Also its just a parochial as the US so it might be that nobody shows up even to watch.  I reckon in viability terms your probably looking at Europe and possibly a Far East race (although I have a feeling that Macau might be deemed to much of a risk by the riders).   I'd have thought that given the popularity of bikes in Spain and Portugal they'd be just the sort of places that such a championship would want to target.

The most fanciful bit in the article linked above is the idea that it'll be predominantly new circuits.  I'd be really interested to see what the make up of these is/are if it ever gets developed.  I wonder if this sort of detail has been worked up by the consultants so far.....

Sam

Right Sam, small market. Brings to mind ex Aus. husband used to say the whole population of Aus. sits on London trains in the morning... , of which not every one is keen on bike riding...

(10-12-2014, 02:12 AM)Sam Pato Wrote:

(10-12-2014, 12:54 AM)sticky Wrote: This is the original article from the old site when the news broke in 2011:

http://www.iomtt.com/News/2011/03/16/Isl...nfirm.aspx

I think it's highly unlikely any circuits from the old F1 championship will come under consideration unless the country they're in is deemed to have some potential commercial benefit to the IOM.

I'd love to see a major bike race back at Bathurst in Aus.  They have all the infrastructure necessary as it hosts the country's biggest car race.  The USA would be an ideal market to crack but there are problems in doing that.  American sport is very insular.  The baseball championship is called the 'World Series' even though no-one else plays it (apart from the Japanese).  The winners of the Superbowl are declared World Champions although only American teams can contest it.  The racing philosophy is embedded in oval racing to the extent that even now, Formula One struggles to get a toe hold.

If Bernie can't get a foot in the door what chance do the DED have?

And can you imagine how the lawyers would decend on it if there was ever an incident like the Bray Hill crash from last year?

Interesting thoughts.  A race at Bathurst would be fantastic but Australia is a tiny market and is the logistics costs would be huge for the return.  Also its just a parochial as the US so it might be that nobody shows up even to watch.  I reckon in viability terms your probably looking at Europe and possibly a Far East race (although I have a feeling that Macau might be deemed to much of a risk by the riders).   I'd have thought that given the popularity of bikes in Spain and Portugal they'd be just the sort of places that such a championship would want to target.

The most fanciful bit in the article linked above is the idea that it'll be predominantly new circuits.  I'd be really interested to see what the make up of these is/are if it ever gets developed.  I wonder if this sort of detail has been worked up by the consultants so far.....

Sam

Sam, the problem with looking at Europe is that it would have to be during the normal season for obvious reasons.  Most of the likely top seeds will already be busy with BSB or other race commitments.  The road race calendar is already crowded with the Irish & IRRC events, so when could you fit another championship in?

If you think about motor sport generally there are a lot of championships trying to sell themselves the same way the DED are with this idea and they end up playing to tiny crowds and probably getting poor TV viewing figures.  The latest is the Formula E car series, which lo and behold, is taking place in the northern hemisphere off-season and is being held on newly devised street circuits.  The DED are very late to this particular party and with another year at least before the consultancy even ends they'll be later still.

Just seen this on Manx Radio:
http://www.manxradio.com/newsread.aspx?id=74196

They're talking about shutting the airport for a period over the weekend.  What message does that send to countries they want to do business with off the back of selling the TT brand?

As I've said before, I'm not intrinsically against this but I just can't see how it can work.  Convince me somebody?

All will be revealed after it is too late to cancel the contract with the consultants,


.

you have a pm eddy

Hey dont hold your breath on this, the different  government offices involved and Douglas council cant even decide amongst themselves where to put the horse tram tracks never mind run this series, they were all falling out over that on Manx Radio other day 

I just can't see it happening either.  Wish I was wrong!  I think there would be a market for it albeit not near the crowds for NASCAR. (Never could see the attraction for "roundy round" racing myself, whether NASCAR or INDY or whatever.)  But I think you are correct that if there were an incident those spectators involved would go screaming to their attorneys for compensation for THEIR choices.  Too PC and lacking the personal responsibility for choices over here.  Too litigious and insurance costs would be obscene on this side of the pond.


Did you hear that they're talking about using attorneys for lab animals instead of rats?

There's more of them and there are things you can't get a rat to do.

(10-12-2014, 07:02 PM)sticky Wrote: Sam, the problem with looking at Europe is that it would have to be during the normal season for obvious reasons.  Most of the likely top seeds will already be busy with BSB or other race commitments.  The road race calendar is already crowded with the Irish & IRRC events, so when could you fit another championship in?

If you think about motor sport generally there are a lot of championships trying to sell themselves the same way the DED are with this idea and they end up playing to tiny crowds and probably getting poor TV viewing figures.  The latest is the Formula E car series, which lo and behold, is taking place in the northern hemisphere off-season and is being held on newly devised street circuits.  The DED are very late to this particular party and with another year at least before the consultancy even ends they'll be later still.

Just seen this on Manx Radio:
http://www.manxradio.com/newsread.aspx?id=74196

They're talking about shutting the airport for a period over the weekend.  What message does that send to countries they want to do business with off the back of selling the TT brand?

As I've said before, I'm not intrinsically against this but I just can't see how it can work.  Convince me somebody?

Its a good point about the congested calendar and maybe the initial solution would be to have a limited series of say 4 races to get it off the ground? Most of the top men would be doing the TT and UGP anyway so perhaps two more rounds (including one new circuit) for the first few years and try to build from there?

I think that the Formula E races are something of a precedent in that they are bringing racing back into a public roads environment. So I see that as a positive (even if it does fail).

I know I'm biased but I think the TV is saturated with BSB/WSB/MotoGP and its all very similar. Which is why I think that there may be a market for something different like a Roads based championship.

I was thinking that there are some parallels with the three grand tours in the cycling world. Out of the blue some millionaire has put up a big cash prize for someone to win all three and all of a sudden people are talking about it. I reckon if the IOMG or some similar backer put enough of an incentive there then it'd get some momentum. Just needs the right deal to be done.

A lot of wishful thinking? Maybe - but of definitely reckon it's worth someone having a proper look at it.

As above - I'd love to know where they are looking at for a new circuit. Maybe Bathurst would be a go'er seen as it would be run out of season?

Cheers


Sam

I'll be very interested to see what circuits too......... I'm presuming out of season, and therefore Southern hemisphere and/or Middle East countries........ so wonder if they will be road or track based. Whatever the set up it will involve a lot of pre-planning and assessment, no small task as might be suggested.
I hope if it goes ahead it's a success, for all the right reasons, a winter racing schedule would be a great thing to get through these cold dark months.

It is a long time since motorcycle racing was genuinely mainstream. This is a minority interest sport and road-racing is a fractional niche within it. If you went to any town centre (except perhaps in Ireland) and asked 'who is John McGuinness or Michael Dunlop' then you be lucky if you were greeted with anything other than blank looks.
The TT exists because it is the original, it is completely unique and it has the history. It really is the 'Road Racing Capital of the World', if you talk about real road racing anywhere in the world, then it won't be long before the conversation turns to the Isle of Man and the TT.
Some of us live and breathe the TT, and it clearly is a major part of the pasts and futures of many of us. For the remaining 99.9999999% of the world's population, it doesn't exist - except in the very occasional, and fleeting, sensational headline.
This is the heart of the reason that the World Series won't fly. The TT Brand may be strong but it won't have the power to generate the level of popular interest to elevate it from its niche and into the realm of viable commercial proposition.

Doug, I think that perhaps the TT 'brand' is not so strong.  Certainly it is with those of us that love the sport but like you say, we're a sub-culture within a minority, so to the rest of the World would it resonate at all?

And to Sam - I can't imagine the Ulster ever being part of this World Series.  For a start they'd have to pay a significant amount of cash to the DED for the priviledge of being under the TT brand and I doubt that a) they'd be able to raise the money and b) why would they want to?

The UGP has a great entry and good TV coverage already.  What benefit could they expect to receive?  I any case, the DED's plan is to form ties with countries who can be of economic benefit to the IOM - countries that may not be that aware of the Island.  Northern Ireland doesn't really fit that spec.

(11-12-2014, 03:56 PM)sticky Wrote: Doug, I think that perhaps the TT 'brand' is not so strong.  Certainly it is with those of us that love the sport but like you say, we're a sub-culture within a minority, so to the rest of the World would it resonate at all?

And to Sam - I can't imagine the Ulster ever being part of this World Series.  For a start they'd have to pay a significant amount of cash to the DED for the priviledge of being under the TT brand and I doubt that a) they'd be able to raise the money and b) why would they want to?

The UGP has a great entry and good TV coverage already.  What benefit could they expect to receive?  I any case, the DED's plan is to form ties with countries who can be of economic benefit to the IOM - countries that may not be that aware of the Island.  Northern Ireland doesn't really fit that spec.

That's my point Sticky. The DED may think that the TT Brand is strong enough to exploit commercially (beyond 2 weeks and a long weekend in the IoM), but frankly they need to take several very large steps backwards and try to develop a realistic sense of perspective.

(11-12-2014, 04:25 PM)Dougboy Wrote:

(11-12-2014, 03:56 PM)sticky Wrote: Doug, I think that perhaps the TT 'brand' is not so strong.  Certainly it is with those of us that love the sport but like you say, we're a sub-culture within a minority, so to the rest of the World would it resonate at all?

And to Sam - I can't imagine the Ulster ever being part of this World Series.  For a start they'd have to pay a significant amount of cash to the DED for the priviledge of being under the TT brand and I doubt that a) they'd be able to raise the money and b) why would they want to?

The UGP has a great entry and good TV coverage already.  What benefit could they expect to receive?  I any case, the DED's plan is to form ties with countries who can be of economic benefit to the IOM - countries that may not be that aware of the Island.  Northern Ireland doesn't really fit that spec.

That's my point Sticky. The DED may think that the TT Brand is strong enough to exploit commercially (beyond 2 weeks and a long weekend in the IoM), but frankly they need to take several very large steps backwards and try to develop a realistic sense of perspective.

The DED taking a step backwards? and developing a realistic sense of perspective?
Are you stark raving mad sir??
No, No, No, No...
We are never wrong about anything.
Ever
Ever, ever.

(11-12-2014, 04:56 PM)c iom tt Wrote:

(11-12-2014, 04:25 PM)Dougboy Wrote:

(11-12-2014, 03:56 PM)sticky Wrote: Doug, I think that perhaps the TT 'brand' is not so strong.  Certainly it is with those of us that love the sport but like you say, we're a sub-culture within a minority, so to the rest of the World would it resonate at all?

And to Sam - I can't imagine the Ulster ever being part of this World Series.  For a start they'd have to pay a significant amount of cash to the DED for the priviledge of being under the TT brand and I doubt that a) they'd be able to raise the money and b) why would they want to?

The UGP has a great entry and good TV coverage already.  What benefit could they expect to receive?  I any case, the DED's plan is to form ties with countries who can be of economic benefit to the IOM - countries that may not be that aware of the Island.  Northern Ireland doesn't really fit that spec.

That's my point Sticky. The DED may think that the TT Brand is strong enough to exploit commercially (beyond 2 weeks and a long weekend in the IoM), but frankly they need to take several very large steps backwards and try to develop a realistic sense of perspective.

The DED taking a step backwards? and developing a realistic sense of perspective?
Are you stark raving mad sir??
No, No, No, No...
We are never wrong about anything.
Ever
Ever, ever.

LOL
In fairness to them, they have to try something , and I'll be delighted if they prove me wrong, but on this one they're headed for the kitty litter.

Dougboy's post, #53 in this thread is as 100% correct and accurate as any post on the subject can get. There is no chance of the series being successful. It MAY get off the ground, (I hope it does not). but it cannot be sustained in the present environment.
The TT itself succeeds because as has been said, it IS...THE TT. Other races latching onto the side of it will be poor and weaker cousins of the TT, and (even more serious), may contribute to permanently harming the TT if (God help us) anything goes seriously wrong.
Whilst I admire entrepreneurial initiative, and the DED are to be at least congratulated for making the effort, I feel in my bones that this is a no hoper.

All joking aside, you are correct, they have to try something. This however is the dangerous path they set themselves.
The DED have been tasked, or have tasked themselves with putting the TT on a commercial footing, first by making the event pay for itself, and then making a profit.
It is fairly easy in the early years to show year on year growth ( whilst at the same time patting themselves on the back on how well they have done), the problem is as each year passes, it becomes more and more difficult to show an increase in revenue/profit, so in order to delay the inevitable, someone will come up with a hairbrain scheme that has the potential to bring in loads of profit. All's you need to do is to get everyone talking about it in a positve light, and when it does not work out, they pull the 'well at least we tried, and you were all in favour of it'. What they dont need is a load of people pointing out from the offset that it is not going to work because of A,B,C.
There will be a point where they will reach saturation point in terms of increased growth.
What happens then will be up to the Isle Of Man Goverment.

(11-12-2014, 06:00 PM)c iom tt Wrote: All joking aside, you are correct, they have to try something. This however is the dangerous path they set themselves.
The DED have been tasked, or have tasked themselves with putting the TT on a commercial footing, first by making the event pay for itself, and then making a profit.
It is fairly easy in the early years to show year on year growth ( whilst at the same time patting themselves on the back on how well they have done), the problem is as each year passes, it becomes more and more difficult to show an increase in revenue/profit, so in order to delay the inevitable, someone will come up with a hairbrain scheme that has the potential to bring in loads of profit. All's you need to do is to get everyone talking about it in a positve light, and when it does not work out, they pull the 'well at least we tried, and you were all in favour of it'. What they dont need is a load of people pointing out from the offset that it is not going to work because of A,B,C.
There will be a point where they will reach saturation point in terms of increased growth.
What happens then will be up to the Isle Of Man Goverment.

My view is that they have done really well in the past 10 years. I've said it before but 2004 (or 2003 for obvious tragic reasons) was the low water mark in recent TT history IMHO. The TT is in really good shape now, the racing is as good as it's ever been, it is on a proper commercial footing, it is paying for itself and it is growing - those behind it deserve great credit. There is some more growth to be had and the Classic TT / Manx offers a further opportunity. TV rights and commercial sponsorship are where I believe the greatest benefits will be realised.
However, my fear is that in their clamour to exploit the TT financially, they will start to encroach on the interests of the ordinary visitor. The Regency Travel monopoly for the Homestay Scheme is not a good thing - I have seen direct evidence of profiteering by the imposition of minimum stays. If central travel management (packages including ferry, flights, accomodation) were to be extended, then it would get much tougher i.e. more costly for the average punter.
Now the TT organisers may be right to attempt to exploit the demand and maximize their take and I have no problem with businesses making a profit. However as the TT moves further away from its amateur past, and more towards a commercial profit making business, the tensions between the event and the legions of volunteers on which it relies (and on which it will continue to have to rely) may become unsustainable.
All of which, I have just realised is a bit off topic, for which I apologise.
Doug