I guess I'm one of the 'moaners' but to re-state my position, I never said TTxGP (as was) shouldn't happen but was very sceptical about how many bikes would show up and history now tells us that it wasn't very many - barely into double figures.  Small though that grid was, it is to this day the biggest grid that electric bike racing has managed to field - anywhere.

As a photographer I actually do appreciate the fact that most of them look different to the usual stuff seen on track at the TT but there simply aren't enough of them and I can't see where any significant increase in the field size is going to come from.

The last mention I could find on Brammo's racing efforts is dated 2013 and they seemed to have been racing against normal bikes - presumably due to the lack of a competitive electric series.  Even in the States they could only manage grids of 5 or 6 in an electric only race.

There is no mention of racing in Mission's erm...mission statement.  They seem to be concentrating on their road going sports bike (although I guess someone could buy one and race it?) but I don't know if it would do a lap or not.  They quote between 105 & 140 mile 'real world' ranges depending on the battery pack used but I can't find any range expectations under race conditions.

I don't speak Belgium-ish but it looks like there will be a Sarolea in 2015 but no mention that I can find of whether it will be on the island this year.

There was talk of the German Munch team building production racers based on the machine they raced in the poorly supported European series but if you click on the racing page of their website all you get is an error message.

The British university teams haven't really made any progress since all this started, so somebody please tell me - where are the entrants to justify the continuation of this concept going to come from?

it would be nice to see the mugen round the southern  even if it was a 1 or 2 lap demo
would be very interesting to see how it went
as for it being too heavy well as the southern is more tight and stop start a gearing change would also be interesting as too be honest i didnt think it was too slow off the make geared up for the mountain coarse

(11-02-2015, 06:41 PM)Mugen Wrote: Eddy, why are you confused? I thought my post with the reasons why we are doing the programme was pretty clear.

Also, this is the 3rd time within this particular thread you have tried to link the Subaru commercial lap, with the TT Zero and you seem to be trying to imply that there is something underhand going on with regards to payments etc. Up to now I have ignored it but you keep returning with the insinuations and if you are trying to infer something about our company and team in this regard it is something we would take very seriously. So please if you have something to say on this subject lets get it out in the open and put the matter to rest.

In my first mention about Subarus I said that I would rather have you than them as I personally do not like either but at least you are bike related  , theirs is a demonstration of something that to me is only there for the financial inducement paid for the privilege as it has no relevance to bike racing  ,  and my point altho not well put is that their lap and yours are 1 lap demonstrations , I am not making insinuations about any untoward dealings I went on to ask and I stress ASK , all be it in a ham fisted way because I can not remember how the concept came about if the TT authorities were financing the event in any way or is the Electric bike industry doing like Subaru paying for the privilege to do a lap at the most prestigious bike meeting in the world  , I asked the question purely in a quest for knowledge , not as a desire to be nasty to any one , opinionated I admit to being  truthful to my beliefs I try to be but nasty I have never tried to be , if I have up set you in any way please accept my apologies , as most that know me of old on here know I am a stubborn Old Git and vary rarely change my mind once made up 

I have said that I will stand down from this thread and have only called back in out of respect for you and feel you deserve an explanation , I am not sure how well I have put that explanation but if you wish to discus it any further I think it may be better by PM for fear of others turning this in to a slanging match , or as I have offered before  call me on 07837509203 

as far as this post goes I now stand back 

.

Mugen, don't worry about Eddy - he gives stubborn-ness lessons to mules

I wouldn't want Eddy, or anyone else to feel they have to stand down from this thread, personally I welcome different opinions, because we all have them. I can't speak for DED, TT Zero or the electric racing world in general, all I would ask is that before anyone makes any conjectures on our team or our motives you only have to ask and I will answer wherever I can. Then we can all have a proper and open forum discussion.
I will kick it off - the first thing that annoys us is whenever we read or hear that someone "knows" that our Shinden programme is just Honda in disguise. I can state categorically that is not the case, Shinden is an internally funded programme and Mugen is not part of, or owned by, Honda.

Mugen,

Could you post a dyno graph of the motor's output? I'm sure you don't want the absolute figures out in the world but I'd be really interested to see the shape of the torque curve.

(12-02-2015, 05:42 PM)desmophile Wrote: Mugen,

Could you post a dyno graph of the motor's output? I'm sure you don't want the absolute figures out in the world but I'd be really interested to see the shape of the torque curve.

it will look like this,
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

(12-02-2015, 05:56 PM)c iom tt Wrote:

(12-02-2015, 05:42 PM)desmophile Wrote: Mugen,

Could you post a dyno graph of the motor's output? I'm sure you don't want the absolute figures out in the world but I'd be really interested to see the shape of the torque curve.

it will look like this,
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

That's what I thought.

My brother works with big DC motors chucking 100 ton blocks of molten steel about, it's impressive to see.

How about a direct injection 250 2 stroke going flat stick generating power for an electric motor, get rid of all those nasty heavy batteries, no gearbox or bogging down off the power, over to you Mr Mugen

Mugen.
a question with the quality and power of batteries improving can your bikes be driven as fast as the rider wants or is there a trade of so the bike gets back to the finish and completes the course ?

Desmophile please check out these guys - Bladon Jets for possible future powerplants to drive generators. It's run by a very good friend of mine Chris Bladon, his twin brother Paul sadly died a few years ago but Paul spent years finding a way to make the micro turbine parts small enough - it was a manufacturing/design process that the big names in turbine manufacture had given up on. They have been involved in hybrid car prototypes and other applications where the size of the drive motor is the most critical thing.

Obviously we wouldn't want to publish our maps but I have sketched up a (very) simple typically generic one below. You will notice max torque is just about instant.

a question with the quality and power of batteries improving can your bikes be driven as fast as the rider wants or is there a trade of so the bike gets back to the finish and completes the course ? Other teams may run different strategies but we tend to set the bikes to run flat out for the duration.
During testing and practice we can give the riders different options of power maps, regen maps and boost buttons etc in order to determine the optimum map for the actual event. This is why for example we hit 165mph through the speed trap during practice and "only" 155 in the race.
Interestingly the limiting factor at the moment is not battery capacity, and normally the rider will have different options (maps) to switch to if one or other of the parameters (such as an overheat warning) is exceeded, which may only be temporary until whatever was causing the alarm is back under control. But generally the aim is to let the riders go flat-stick and race the course.
Hope that all makes sense

(12-02-2015, 07:08 PM)Alfie Noakes Wrote: Desmophile please check out these guys - Bladon Jets  for possible future powerplants to drive generators. It's run by a very good friend of mine Chris Bladon, his twin brother Paul sadly died a few years ago but Paul spent years finding a way to make the micro turbine parts small enough - it was a manufacturing/design process that the big names in turbine manufacture had given up on. They have been involved in hybrid car prototypes and other applications where the size of the drive motor is the most critical thing.

Thanks Alfie, that's very interesting. Bladon brothers rings a bell, didn't they build some very quick and reliable race engines a few years ago? 

(12-02-2015, 10:26 PM)Mugen Wrote: Obviously we wouldn't want to publish our maps but I have sketched up a (very) simple typically generic one below. You will notice max torque is just about instant.

Thanks for that. Bearing in mind that you've got max torque at low revs have you got some clever electronics to stop the thing flipping over or spinning the back out of corners or is it all down to the rider?

How about a direct injection 250 2 stroke going flat stick generating power for an electric motor, I don't know if you would get enough kilowatts to the motor, and it would be against the Zero emissions rules. Under the current regs as they stand we wouldn't even be able to use hydrogen fuel cell because it emits water.get rid of all those nasty heavy batteries,can't deny that, they are heavy (and expensive). Our bike is about 100kg heavier than a superbike no gearbox we don't have a need for a gearbox (the "map" I posted will show why)or bogging down off the powerthey don't come off the power band and bog down in the way we all understand it, and I think we were about 123mph over the finish line speed trap from a standing start, over to you Mr Mugen

(12-02-2015, 10:49 PM)desmophile Wrote: Thanks for that. Bearing in mind that you've got max torque at low revs have you got some clever electronics to stop the thing flipping over or spinning the back out of corners or is it all down to the rider?

The electronics can help but it is not an issue we have had so far, which may be down to weight and geometry as well. Because the throttle response is so smooth and linear it doesn't upset the bike when leaned over you can carry more corner speed (up to 20mph in places according to JM), so think of it as a bike that you have to corner like a 250, with the horsepower (now) of a 600, but with a lot more weight than a superbike.
However, when I rode the Mission electric bike last year they did pre-warn me that it would wheelie at 120mph if I whacked the throttle open (I didn't try it!)

(12-02-2015, 10:46 PM)desmophile Wrote:

(12-02-2015, 07:08 PM)Alfie Noakes Wrote: Desmophile please check out these guys - Bladon Jets  for possible future powerplants to drive generators. It's run by a very good friend of mine Chris Bladon, his twin brother Paul sadly died a few years ago but Paul spent years finding a way to make the micro turbine parts small enough - it was a manufacturing/design process that the big names in turbine manufacture had given up on. They have been involved in hybrid car prototypes and other applications where the size of the drive motor is the most critical thing.

Thanks Alfie, that's very interesting. Bladon brothers rings a bell, didn't they build some very quick and reliable race engines a few years ago? 

Yes Desmo, their main interest was Aermacchi 250/350 singles to start with then multi-cylinder motors after that, their own bikes were absolute jewels as was the workshop/dyno, both were racers, their original workshop was in Hemel Hempstead then they moved up to a little village on the North Wales border. Chris was the tech designer/drawer/illustrator and Paul the engineer. Paul passed away sadly after he cracked the process of making the very small central turbine/blade unit from one piece of metal rather than components, the company is his ongoing legacy.

Didn't realise the Mugen bikes were that heavy, lapping at the times the lovely smelly 250 2-stroke times were doing before course changes is impressive and to be respected, with that weight the chassis set-up must be very very good .. the TT powers that be and govt need to manage/promote the overall emission ideal and image in a better way - there are lots of people that know about battery manufacture costs and infrastructure out there in the real world.

(13-02-2015, 12:22 PM)Alfie Noakes Wrote: Didn't realise the Mugen bikes were that heavy,  lapping at the times the lovely smelly 250 2-stroke times were doing before course changes is impressive and to be respected, with that weight the chassis set-up must be very very good .. the TT powers that be and govt need to manage/promote the overall emission ideal and image in a better way - there are lots of people that know about battery manufacture costs and infrastructure out there in the real world.

Setting up suspension on heavy bikes is in some ways simpler than very light machines. Provided that the majority of that mass is sprung (not in the wheels and moving parts of the suspension) and also that it is not distributed away from the the CoG.
The force transferred into the chassis is a simple multiple of the mass of the unsprung parts and their acceleration (up and down). Those forces, being similar, will tend to upset a light bike much more so than a heavy bike. In theory at least ;-)

Mugen. Having also been into sprinting and drag racing the concept of your power and the right chassis and rear tyre thats got to put down a serious 1/4 mile time. Plus it could be lighter as only having to do 1/4 mile the batteries would be a lot lighter . I assume you have not built one yet but when you do I want a go