I haven't really got involved in this debate........as I don't actually believe that electricity is the future for transport.
However I can't imagine anyone can take this class seriously over a one lap race. They managed FIVE laps in 1911, so will someone please tell me why we can't at least have a two lap race, i.e. the same distance that modern race bikes manage before refuelling. If it was a two lapper, I MAY give the event some credibility.

Surely the high speed changes of direction on a lighter bike especially on long road circuits are easier to manage though for the rider, once all that weight is effectively going in a circle when leaning over it's going to take more physical effort from the rider and more distance/time than a light bike to get the weight going the other way .. lots of physics involved - some I think I know from experience, some I'd like to know/learn.

(13-02-2015, 01:48 PM)Splashdown Wrote: I haven't really got involved in this debate........as I don't actually believe that electricity is the future for transport.
However I can't imagine anyone can take this class seriously over a one lap race. They managed FIVE laps in 1911, so will someone please tell me why we can't at least have a two lap race, i.e. the same distance that modern race bikes manage before refuelling. If it was a two lapper, I MAY give the event some credibility.

I am hoping we will get to that stage soon. With the technology/speeds increasing at a seemingly very fast rate, battery life will also increase. Maybe the organisers stipulate a 2 lap race in 2/3/asap! years?
Mugen, do you think that will be feasible?
How close are we to 2 lap capability?

Even if that ability came to fruition tomorrow, where are the teams to compete?  Guys - do a web search and see just how little activity there is worldwide.  There are hardly any teams - anywhere.  If the concept of electric bike racing hasn't grown after 6 years then when will it, if ever?

I don't mean performance levels like Mugen has achieved, I mean the quantity of entrants.  How can it be the 'future' if no-one wants to compete?

When can we do 2 laps is a common question from fans and the short answer is that we could do 2 laps now.
However the problems with going that route are threefold; firstly, so far only 4 bikes have completed 100+mph laps (2 x MotoCzysz, 2 x Mugen), so if you suddenly introduce a 2-lap race you reduce even further the potential number of competitors who can compete, and/or make it more difficult for new competitors to join.
Then, even at the current rate of development, doubling the distance will decrease the speed. We have worked hard to make the performance credible in comparison, and if you are suddenly back to sub-100mph laps you invite further criticism.
Finally, the actual pace of development can demoralise existing, or scare away new, competitors.
The problem is we can't slow our pace to allow others to catch up, because as the technology continues to open up performance potential we have to keep chasing it otherwise we could get caught with our pants down by any new entrants, so we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.
The speed development has not plateaued yet, it could be 117 (unlikely), maybe 120+, or even 130, who knows?
The obvious answer is that we need more bikes of similar performance on the course, but we are possibly one "Eureka" moment from some major avenue of development breaking away from the current solutions, leaving the others sitting on the wrong branch of the tree. This may be why we don't see the major players rushing to join in, it could be they need the technology development to stabilise before they invest the many millions they (as major manufacturers) would have to . Of one thing you can be sure though, every serious player has a whole army of people, and lots of investment, looking at utilising electric power, so it will come. It is just that no-one can honestly say whether it is going to be 5, 10 or 50 years before it goes mainstream.
Sorry for the long answer, but it is a complex topic, with no easy answer.

Is there a TT fan base for the electic bike race at the TT ???
Why drop the 250/400 race because of fewer entrants ???
How can you call it a race ( how many bikes?) one lap???
I'm sure there is a place for them somewhere but in my eyes it's not the Isle Of Man mountain course!
The Island is about pure road racing and that's what we pay a fortune to go and see every year !
They say people don't like change but what really has changed with the battery race after it was introduced.... Faster lap times ( o yeah , brilliant) more entrants (no)
Does anyone seriously enjoy this so called TT event.
Mybe I'm on my own on this one but that's my rant over .
Suppose il get told there's a place at the manx GP for 250/400 but that is not the point !

The thing that gets on my goat shuffler is that we keep getting told the likes of you & I are behind with the times. And do you know what, sometimes I'm really glad I am  !!

I agree with you Shuffler, I'd far rather see a 3-4 lap 250/400cc race than the one lap zero TT farce.

A colleague in the motor trade has just taken a totally electric not hybrid Nissan Leaf in p/x - £30k new, now 4 years old with 13k miles - the car owes him £8k, the 1st owner has shot £22k in 4 years over 13000 miles - sound like value or savings ?, apparently the home charging kit is another £1k and you have to pay extra to "own" the battery otherwise you lease it from Nissan ... it does 90miles if you're lucky before recharging and it's not recommended to use the fast charge system every time and the range indicator drops considerably when you turn the heater on .. the future ??.

is that what they call progress

So what is the Mugan thing all about please, my wife`s battery push  bike would do over 20 miles before recharge 16 years ago.

And to be controversial I don`t think it should have TT status.( Just put my Flack jacket on. )

Much has been said about the electric bikes. Proponents claim that they are the modern equivalent of the original TT bikes from long ago. I have some sympathy with this argument - all new technologies need a 'springboard' and racing is a great way of speeding development. 

On the other hand using racing to push development only works if the class is well supported and popular with the race-going public (who ultimately provide the finance). I've yet to meet a supporter of the electric bikes amongst TT spectators (and I've been present for every race) and the number of teams / developers hasn't increased in any noticeable fashion. 

The other argument offered in favour of these bikes is that they are 'the sustainable future' but they aren't - they just move the production of their energy 'upstream' - power stations still use (in the main) coal or oil for the production of the energy that charges the bike's batteries. How does that help?

If the TT is to continue it must evolve but this evolutionary branch is a dead end IMHO.

(15-02-2015, 02:05 PM)Blademan Wrote: I agree with you Shuffler, I'd far rather see a 3-4 lap 250/400cc race than the one lap zero TT farce.

What the hell is anyone going to ride in a 250/400 race??

Mugen I would like to ask a technical question with no digs only a safety issue, some years ago before practice week close to the race office car park I wheeled out of the van an ex WSB Kawasaki to get items from the front of he van, I think it was Chief Scrutineer Harvey Garton who noticed the bike and came over to explain that the Carbon wheels and swing arm were banned and could not be used at the TT, I was quick to point out that I was aware of the rules and the wheels were on just to move the bike and swing arm was going to be changed as we had just taken charge of the bike and that I was fully aware of the dangers of using a carbon fibre or kevlar composite swing arm on the stressful mountain circuit and the use of composite construction is forbidden, in the rules for bikes it says,    Rear Fork (Swing-arm)   The rear fork may be altered or replaced from those fitted to the homologated motorcycle. The use of carbon fibre or Kevlar materials is not allowed,  The TT zero rules are poor with regards to safety other than all the rules regarding the electrics,  is the class a free for all regarding issues such as composite parts like frame and swing arm?   The 2015 TT rules say  The Clerk of the Course may on the advice of the Chief Technical Officer, disqualify any vehicle, or equipment, the construction or condition of which is deemed to be unsafe or inappropriate.   Should an incident happen as a result of composite failure who's going to take blame?, as I started this post I am not having a dig but just questioning what I think is a safety issue

I know we live in the world as it is today , but I wonder what the reaction would be if things had unfolded differently and the electric bike was what we all had and used and were used to ,then someone invents this noisy revving two stroke engine would we treat it in the same way we are treating the electrical revolution messing up our quite and fragrant enviroment ?

(19-02-2015, 09:45 AM)Kursaal Flyer Wrote: I know we live in the world as it is today , but I wonder what the reaction would be if things had unfolded differently and the electric bike was what we all had and used and were used to ,then someone invents this noisy revving two stroke engine would we treat it in the same way we are treating the electrical revolution messing up our quite and fragrant enviroment ?

good post and proberbly very acurate for our socioty

It happened a long time ago, [110 years] in  1905 lots of electric cars with batteries needing charging, then petrol engines became popular to avoid long charging times.
Even better when electric starter motors fitted.
Petrol stations may have been scarce, but fill a scan and take it home.

(19-02-2015, 12:10 AM)spannerman Wrote: Mugen I would like to ask a technical question with no digs only a safety issue, some years ago before practice week close to the race office car park I wheeled out of the van an ex WSB Kawasaki to get items from the front of he van, I think it was Chief Scrutineer Harvey Garton who noticed the bike and came over to explain that the Carbon wheels and swing arm were banned and could not be used at the TT, I was quick to point out that I was aware of the rules and the wheels were on just to move the bike and swing arm was going to be changed as we had just taken charge of the bike and that I was fully aware of the dangers of using a carbon fibre or kevlar composite swing arm on the stressful mountain circuit and the use of composite construction is forbidden, in the rules for bikes it says,    Rear Fork (Swing-arm)   The rear fork may be altered or replaced from those fitted to the homologated motorcycle. The use of carbon fibre or Kevlar materials is not allowed,  The TT zero rules are poor with regards to safety other than all the rules regarding the electrics,  is the class a free for all regarding issues such as composite parts like frame and swing arm?   The 2015 TT rules say  The Clerk of the Course may on the advice of the Chief Technical Officer, disqualify any vehicle, or equipment, the construction or condition of which is deemed to be unsafe or inappropriate.   Should an incident happen as a result of composite failure who's going to take blame?, as I started this post I am not having a dig but just questioning what I think is a safety issue

It is true that because TT Zero is a prototype class there are different regulations in place. Apart from the usual scrutineering that every bike goes through each time it goes on circuit, the technical crew visit the TT Zero bikes in their garages and inspect them for overall safety and quality of build and I believe they assess each one on their respective merits. We have run full carbon frame and swing-arm since our first visit in 2012.
Composite construction these days, with the widespread use of FEA and materials development, should mean that a properly designed and executed composite component will be no less a safely engineered solution than any other material.

I cant remember if they run them at the TT, but the Britten use to run Carbon Fibre wheels as standard.
Splashdown would be the one to answer this.

 running lightweight homemade carbon wheels and homemade parts.