(09-04-2015, 09:35 AM)Geekay Wrote: On a lighter note, if the internet had existed in the early 1900's, I wonder if we would have had a forum slagging off this new fangled Tourist Trophy thing? "Can't see it catching on myself" and " Nobody wants to see these petrol engines; they'll never replace steam" or "I can't see them ever reaching any decent speeds" etc etc.

More likely they would be saying " it'll never replace electric", as most, if not all,of the first speed records, were set by electric vehicles!

Interesting to see in this week's Autosport that 180 cities have expressed an interest in hosting a Formula E event, and that many are prepared to pay a "substantial" amount of money for the privilege, which would suggest there are at least some people out there that think there is an appetite for EV racing.

(09-04-2015, 09:48 PM)Mugen Wrote: Interesting to see in this week's Autosport that 180 cities have expressed an interest in hosting a Formula E event, and that many are prepared to pay a "substantial" amount of money for the privilege, which would suggest there are at least some people out there that think there is an appetite for EV racing.

And that Mugen was the whole point of my question

Formula E seem to have got it right.  Good backing, proper grid size etc.  Electric bike racing suffered, in my opinion, by being forced through too soon for political expediency and refuses to grow.  No matter who has tried to make it work, be it the DED, the FIM or the original TTxGP bunch, the result has always been the same - very small grids.  Question is - can it ever work as well as the car guys seem to be doing?

(10-04-2015, 06:33 PM)sticky Wrote:

(09-04-2015, 09:48 PM)Mugen Wrote: Interesting to see in this week's Autosport that 180 cities have expressed an interest in hosting a Formula E event, and that many are prepared to pay a "substantial" amount of money for the privilege, which would suggest there are at least some people out there that think there is an appetite for EV racing.

And that Mugen was the whole point of my question

Formula E seem to have got it right.  Good backing, proper grid size etc.  Electric bike racing suffered, in my opinion, by being forced through too soon for political expediency and refuses to grow.  No matter who has tried to make it work, be it the DED, the FIM or the original TTxGP bunch, the result has always been the same - very small grids.  Question is - can it ever work as well as the car guys seem to be doing?

Firstly let me say that these are my personal opinions and are not necessarily a formal statement by Mugen.
I believe the primary barrier to the expansion and acceptance of EV bike racing, whether at the TT or elsewhere, has been grid sizes and the competitive depth of the field. I think a reason for this may be the rapid rate of development and therefore the target that any new team has to aim at is constantly moving. Who would have predicted that in just over 3 years the target would go from 100mph to 120 (which seems to be a popular figure being bandied about for 2015)? If you assume a 2-year development cycle to get a new-build bike to the start-line, pick any start time you like from 2011 on, where would you pitch/have pitched your target (without the benefit of hindsight), and how many people out there would be willing to make the necessary investment if they were not confident they could be competitive?
Also, lets not underestimate the financial and corporate clout that the FIA carries. If they commit to something happening they can batter through any obstacles and make it so, and in the case of Formula E this is what they did. They persuaded Renault to build the cars, Williams and McLaren (I think) the drivetrain, and then set up 10 franchises to be made available to the prospective teams. The development race was effectively put on hold and all teams would have an equal chance of race victories, and, much as I don't like one-make "spec" series or balance of performance equalisation rules, this was probably essential in establishing the series in its first season. At the moment the team franchises have a value and it will be interesting to see how sustainable this remains in seasons 2 and 3 when the rules open up to allow competitive development if someone finds the golden key and starts to dominate.
If you picture a similar scenario where 20 or so equal development-limited bikes i.e. one-make, one-spec (or 40 if you want to do a pit-stop and change bikes ala Formula E) rock up at IoM for TT Zero I am sure there would have been even faster and more widespread race fan acceptance than there has been so far (which actually increases exponentially year on year) and race teams would be looking at getting involved if they believed they would have a realistic chance of a TT win. I don't think that can happen in the bike world so easily (as the cars) because there simply are not the finances available to underwrite it (unless a major benefactor is floating around somewhere that I don't know about).
Therefore I think the DED have done the right thing in providing an environment where we can demonstrate the technology and show the development in real-time action (development that would normally take place behind closed doors), and in turn allow teams like ourselves and Motoczysz (and whoever else turns up in 2015) to keep pushing the bar higher towards respectability. I know from comments I have had made to me, it has gone from "these 2-wheel milk floats are so slow, you will never get me to ride one" (2012) to 2014 comments "wow, I can't believe an electric bike could be so fast and I can't wait until I can ride one", that we are reaching people.
Now that we have reached "respectable" lap speeds the next key milestone will be when we start to approach the natural speed ceiling, and I have no idea whether that might be 120, 125 or even 130mph, then I think with a more stable and consistent performance target you will see more people encouraged to invest.
For our part though, we can't afford to relax and stop trying to go faster and faster because we would soon find ourselves being overtaken, but there will come a time when it will be as much about chassis and other normal bike racing factors as it is about motor kilowatts and battery power. Having said that, we are already at the point where you need to have a very good rider in order to extract the maximum potential, and fortunately we have 2 of the best.
So to (eventually) answer your question I think, yes, bike racing can (and will) do as much as the car guys with EV racing - the fuse has been lit, it is just a matter of when, not if, rocket takes off.

Your views make perfect sense to me Mugen, and your insight into how the car series has been structured got me thinking, is the answer to agree to a formula, which at the end of the day is what all the other classes now run to, (Superstock, sport, bike, twin, so why not SuperE?), and then build some customer spec bikes to lease or sell to other teams?

You and others could still continue your development each year and then filter this down to the customer spec bikes with upgrades, Motogp seems to work this way, and historically this has been the case for many years, for example when I was racing in the 70's & 80's Yamaha did this very successfully and dominated the sport with the customer TZ's, gone by then were the days when you could build something in your shed and win races on it, yet that had been possible 10 years before.

Looking back to the start of TTXGP or whatever they called it, there were several home built creations around which have obviously now been eclipsed, things have moved on, people need a supply, the only obstacle to customer spec bikes I guess would be cost, but maybe self build kits containing the key elements could be an option?

Spot-on summary Warrior, I couldn't fault a word of it.