Is TT sustainable
Rednine Offline
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#21
RE: Is TT sustainable
Excellent post Steve, and a welcome one. Been going for so many years have enjoyed seeing yo compete. I have a feeling we may have had a mutual friend from Totternhoe - Geoff Richardson?

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09-06-2019, 09:59 AM
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c iom tt Offline
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#22
RE: Is TT sustainable
Some interesting comments.
I am just back home after an 'Odd' TT.
In my opinion, the TT is evolving and changing, some for the good, some not so. As for racing in the rain? I have mixed views. On one hand, the 600, Superstock, and Superbike are far to powerful to be running around in the rain, and that is another problem, no variety in classes, they all look and sound the same, and are not that different in lap times. A smaller/ lower powered class may help?
Then there is those that attend ( I will refrain from calling them all fans )
From my observations this year, there seem to be less and less 'Fans/enthusiasts' and more ' event' people.
At Gorselea, there were about 20 bikes in the field, and about 40 cars. On the stretch I was watching from, there were only three of us with radios ( about 30 people) and two of us with programs. At Sarahs ( never watched from there before, went twice) I was the only one with a programe, and again, two radios. Quarry bends was the same, two radios, and two program's.
I watched the Senior from Marown Church, lots more bikes, but I only saw one other person with a program, and when the batterys went flat on my radio, it almost was silent. There was a young couple sitting next to me ( didnt look like bikers) she was asleep in here chair with a coat over her head for the whole race, and I dont think he looked up from his phone for the whole 6 laps even when there were bikes going past.
It s going to interesting next year to see what happens with attendance. As much as I dont agree with them, I will bet there were quite a few VIPs not happy this year, especially the ones who paid for a lap in the cars on closed roads.
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09-06-2019, 02:31 PM
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AntG Offline
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#23
RE: Is TT sustainable
In the current climate no, something like insurance or the crackdown on the internal combustion engine is likely to end it at some point I'd say.

That said I really enjoyed this year, I do however feel sorry for those from much further afield who have spent thousands of pounds to just look at wet roads.
09-06-2019, 10:27 PM
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AntG Offline
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#24
RE: Is TT sustainable
Also in answer to the comment about lack of bikers, a lot of people don't bother bringing them for a number of reasons ranging from ferry costs to the levels of absolute idiocy other road users seem to display, some people seem to think that because a road is unrestricted it means that they must ride like a lunatic and some of us don't want to run the risk of getting caught up in their stupidity. I always say to people that the best time to ride the TT course is when the TT isn't on.
(This post was last modified: 10-06-2019, 10:09 AM by AntG.)
10-06-2019, 10:09 AM
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Alfie Noakes Offline
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#25
RE: Is TT sustainable
^AntG .. it's not even part of the course but sadly for the reasons you mention there have been 2 fatal accidents in the area of the unrestricted Sloc Road, not sure why spending a load of money to travel and speed around The Sloc seems a good idea.
I'm Manx and have been spectating/spannering/racing for 40 odd years now and this year the weather was the most constant nadgery 'orrible cold/windy/wet/grey weather over the TT fortnight or MGP I can rememberhopefully it's a one-off, it wasn't comfortable/enjoyable to be out there on a bike most of the time nor sat in a field waiting for practice/racing which may explain a lack of bikes, I also noticed that while still being keen and getting to fave spec areas very early there wasn't the usual numbers in attendance until closer to roads closing and a couple of times when out on my bike in relatively clearer weather the TT course was compared to other years totally dead even over the mountain section, the lack of radios/radio noise may have been due to more people using headphones from mobile phones.

The racing classes are much alike but not sure what the answer is -
Moto2/3 bikes are expensive and not raced in great numbers in the UK.
I can see some riders in near future being quicker on Superstock than Superbike due to power/spec etc of latest 1000cc bikes, at at a local sponsors night before TT Hicky was there and he said this years over the counter retail BMW 1000rr has the same bhp as his fully spec'd 2016 BSB bike.
Triumph supply the 765cc Moto2 control engine but have no plans for a sports road bike until 2020 at earliest have already dropped their 675 Daytona sports bike and if they make a 765cc road bike will that be allowed in with 600cc 4-cyl Supersport ?
The current classes are supported by riders who can race regularly at club/national level and road circuits on their bikes, not sure where we'd get a relatively full grid of any other machine or cc from ?.
Sales of 600cc sportsbikes are not good and I think only Yamaha has a new model 600/R6 in the showroom while the Kawasaki is a refreshed bike.
Back "in the day" we started and raced in very wet conditions as it was the done thing then, MGP 90/92 some races we set off in very windy/wet conditions, not saying it was a good idea but it was our choice, these days it's not safe with the speed/power of the bikes and there's much more focus on insurance and health n safety for racers/crew, spectators and land owners.
I'm fortunate to have family on IoM, still enjoy all aspects of TT/MGP and I have huge respect for anybody that comes over and stays/camps in a tent given the conditions this year and would have to say that all the people I met who were camping were very happy just to be here spectating and it's good to still see large numbers of continental fans here.
Sod's Law imposed and the wind has dropped and sun is out today, luckily i'm here for another week.
10-06-2019, 12:09 PM
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Sam Pato Offline
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#26
RE: Is TT sustainable
On my last two visits I had my IOMTT branded earpiece radio and watched the live timing on my phone app.  Which was great.  I did buy a program but I ended up not carrying it around with me as the numbers were jumbled up by the practice. 

The last time I went on a bike was in 2002 and even then most times I went for a lap I ended up stuck in Ramsey (often for hours) waiting for the road to re-open. 

On my last visit (2011) two things stick in my mind.

After years of thinking I'd like to give it a try I finally signed up for a bus trip with an ex racer providing commentary - the rider didn't show up - so we eventually went.  Got stuck at Ramsey waited for an hour then can back on the coast road.

We took the tram up to the top of Snaefell.  When we get there the road was closed while they attended to an accident about a mile before the bungalow (just after bungalow bridge).  They opened the road before the ambulance had cleared the scene and there was a crash between two bikes trying to get past the ambulance.

The third unrelated thing was that everyone on the ferry was 45+ year olds.

Anyone leaving the bike at home in favour of a car............seems reasonable really.

Sam
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11-06-2019, 03:03 AM
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c iom tt Offline
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#27
RE: Is TT sustainable
I guess I will just shut up then.
Next year, when someone asks to look at my race guide( I lost count of the times I was asked this year) I will tell them no, you should have brought the one you bought with you.
I will also use some headphones in my radio so I dont disturb anyone with the annoying noise it makes.
I will still take my bike rather than the car as for me its part of the whole experience, and ultimately, having a love of motorcycles and wanting to use them as much as possible is what sparked the interest in the TT all those years ago.
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11-06-2019, 08:51 AM
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AntG Offline
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#28
RE: Is TT sustainable
I just go on foot, I flat out refuse to pay 300 quid or whatever it is to take a bike over when I can take one over now for half the cost and get around the course much safer without the threat of talentless idiots turning me into another statistic. I just buy a bus pass when I go over there during TT.
11-06-2019, 09:07 AM
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hrcbob Offline
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#29
RE: Is TT sustainable
I think the TT is sustainable in its current format.
Yes the weather this year played havoc and there will no doubt be people who saw no racing in their time on the island. Would I let that put me off going again?    Hell no!! 
I think the rise in popularity of social media and youtube etc have increased the numbers of "non bikers" attending the TT but i don't see this as a bad thing.
In reality bikers are an aging and declining part of the population (from my observations here in Ireland  and at NEC bike shows) and it has to be better that TT is still being supported well than to see dwindling crowds year on year.
I understand it can be frustrating to see these visitors who are simply there for the spectacle not getting into the radio commentary or the programs but when they have no knowledge of who the riders are or the radio coverage, is it surprising?

I wonder is it that some of the finer details are missed in the promotion of the tt and the mgp?
Are all visitors aware that the radio coverage is available?

A larger threat to the TT will come from the health and safety and environmental regulations being tightened.
Hats off to Garry Thompson this year. Id say the poor man didn't sleep for the full 2 weeks.
11-06-2019, 09:16 AM
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AntG Offline
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#30
RE: Is TT sustainable
Could the Junior Supersport class become an option in the future?
11-06-2019, 09:32 AM
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hrcbob Offline
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#31
RE: Is TT sustainable
There had been some talks of the 300ss class making an appearance at the Irish road races earlier this year but i am not sure if it ever got anywhere.
It would need proper controls so it didn't end up being another version of the current 650 supertwins and costing silly money.
(This post was last modified: 11-06-2019, 11:26 AM by Malcolm.)
11-06-2019, 09:49 AM
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Chrisp955 Offline
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#32
RE: Is TT sustainable
I agree about the TT having appeal to a wider audience. I'm still going to the TT with the the peaple I went with in the early 80s. When sadly I must admit the Lido place was a bigger part of the TT then the racing was for me at the time.
We now take along our partners but from a group of 8 males only one of our children have followed us over. We have pulled in new peaple but only of our own age.
I always go on my bike as stated before it's a big part for me. And allows me to move round to parts of the track a car would struggle to get to. And you don't get as stuck in the traffic as much.
There is definitely a shift in peaple that are coming over. And a lot of peaple exploiting that in a big rise in costs at certain places. £25 to £40 to sit in a plastic seat at Hillbury I'm told and not even on senior day. I won't visit the Creg anymore. The grandstand is a corporate paradise. Poor beer expensive food and don't start me on the bloody monster energy stunt show. But for all this the TT keeps its charm for me. There are still great pubs to drink in cheep and good places to eat. Pie night at Dhoon church is fantastic as is the Bride TT tea. There are some great pubs cafes and chippys on the back streets. Most of the peaple on hear no the great free spots to watch. I did pay £10 to watch at Black dub on the Wednesday and as there was no racing he give me my £10 back so I went back on Thursday and I do think it was good value for money.
On another note I think the super twins all be it a great race have  lost there way. For me they shouldn't of let Ryan modifie them to the extent he has. And to pressure the organisers to make  the lads that brought the sv650 a few years ago to make a pit stop because his bikes could do a race distance without was totally out of order. It must be as expensive to run a super twin as a 600 ss.
But as long as TT keeps its charm and history. Let the corporate bods have the grandstand and the Creg. I will keep the the hedges and back streets and still have a great time. Still miss the Lido though
11-06-2019, 11:26 AM
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Alfie Noakes Offline
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#33
RE: Is TT sustainable
It wasn't so long ago that Senior Race day the IoM was dead and you had to fill/write in the riders yourself in the program, it certainly wasn't the competitive well attended race it is these days, nothing wrong at all with radio noise CIoM all I mean't was the lack of it was probably down to people using headphones off their mobile phone especially now as you can use your UK phone contract data without getting charged and they might be viewing the live times at same time, times/people/needs do change but there's still the original TT/MGP thing there if you want to find it amongst all the new corporate stuff for me having grown up with all aspects I still find watching the riders/crews getting all excited as they bring their machines up for scrutineering at the Grandstand - the nervous excitement, expectation chit-chat etc is a great thing to see, another question is would the TT be as well attended/supported without the newer type of spectator/fans/corporate stuff because as we've seen at The Manx(i'll always call it that) if there's not enough return for the Govt Bean Counters they won't hesitate to stop the event if not enough revenue is incoming. Fully agree about the Supertwin thing I think C955 you're right in that a quick 600ss could be put on the grid for less money. The Lido hahaha, a raucous den of iniquity I was attending from the age of 16 when living over here.
11-06-2019, 12:19 PM
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c iom tt Offline
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#34
RE: Is TT sustainable
The Senior race attendance has never been anywhere near dead, at anytime in the last 30 years. Its true that some years attendance for the race week has been poor, but Senior race day has always been busy. Having to fill in the riders yourself is also incorrect. The page in the race guide was blank, but it was blank for a reason. In the good old days when the riders use to go off in numerical order, all races apart from the Senior were preset, regardless of practice times. The Senior starting order was determined on lap times during the week. on the Thursday before the Senior, they would publish a printed starting order that you could pick up. It was the same size and layout as the race guide. The blank pages therefore had nothing to do with how busy the attendance was. 
I still believe I am right about the low use of radios. Even a quick glance up and down a line of spectators can see who has ear piece radios/headphones in. Still a very, very low percentage.
A case in point. The woman who was fined £1500 for walking on closed roads pleaded ignorance to the law. Yet, how many times do you hear it announced on the radio that you can go on closed roads? Or the fact that it is printed in the program and race guide. An enthusiast will devour every piece of information they can BEFORE they even get here. The 'Eventers' seem to arrive feeling entitled to do what they want.
As for the Lido, they current crop would either faint,be offended and seek counselling, or sue for distress if they saw what when on in there.
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(This post was last modified: 11-06-2019, 04:22 PM by Malcolm.)
11-06-2019, 02:10 PM
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ian333 Offline
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#35
RE: Is TT sustainable
The government has a responsibility to offset the running costs by maximizing revenue opportunities. Aside from making the TT economically viable, It keeps the Ban the TT brigade at bay. Sure, the TT is more corporate and markets itself to a wider range of folk these days but we have all benefited from some of the changes in some way or other. Failure to adapt or move with the times and the TT would have been on its knees today. Crusty grizzly old bikers are a dying breed. For me the more things change, the more they stay the same - I camp, walk all over the island, do a bit of marshaling and grab a few pints along the way. On my days off, took in the action at Greeba Bridge and Guthrie’s - both spectacular and I am willing to guess the spectating experience was no different this year versus 30 years ago. Some people want their comforts at sporting events - I prefer to stand on a wall or sit on a bank with a box of sandwiches and watch it. Each to their own I guess. If someone wants to pony up £50/60/70 or more (still cheap relative to other sporting events) more power to them because those people are offsetting the need for the organisers to come after my pocket! Additionally, requiring everyone in attendance to know what bike Joey was riding during his first TT win is a little elitist.
(This post was last modified: 11-06-2019, 06:24 PM by ian333.)
11-06-2019, 06:07 PM
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Yamaham Offline
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#36
RE: Is TT sustainable
I'll bow to the experience of others on this forum, though I have a few thoughts on the future of the TT. This year was the tenth anniversary of my first trip to the TT, and I have noticed dramatic changes since 2009. It is of course far busier than it was then, which for me, can be attributed to the way the event has been marketed/ broadcast in America and Australia. Add in the popularity of the feature films, 'Living on the edge', and 'Road', and I can see why plenty more punters are attracted to head over. However I think that the organisers and the Manx government need to be careful what they want the TT to become in the future. Although real bike fans will surely always be the core of travellers to the TT, some may be priced out. This year for example, I delayed booking the campsite we have stayed at for the past four years as I wanted to see if I could change our ferries as we couldn't stay for the Senior. Having failed to do so, I contacted the campsite early March to book, only to be told that they were fully booked. We have noticed year on year that this site has become busier with fans travelling from around the world, who require, or prefer prebuilt tents. Checking the prices for our stay, (7 nights for £1100 in prebuilt tent, £1800 for glamping was what I was quoted), I was convinced that the average punter is having their options more and more limited at the TT. Still, wasn't a bad year to try our first homestay!

I have no problem with fans from all over the world making the pilgrimage, and I am well aware that there's plenty other campsites had I booked earlier, but I feel that this is just one example of how the corporate aspect of the TT is pricing some fans out of it. In 10 years of attending, I have only managed to secure ferries suitable for the Senior twice. I find this quite frustrating, especially when watching practice at Bray hill on Thursday night, just before we went to pack our bags for the early Heysham ferry, an American guy who had just arrived asked me where Ballascarey was, and what number Guy Martin was! (I resisted telling him that Guy Martin was number 101 and that Ballascarey was in Castletown) I know that the corporate game is needed to make it work, but I think that there is enough of the Monster taxi rides, grandstands thrown up where there was once good free viewpoints, and that anymore could alienate fans who have been attending for a lot longer than I have.

Anyway, it hasn't lessened my love for the place, or the TT itself and like many, already booked for next year (ferry sorted for the Senior too!).

Haven't heard of the Lido before, though if anybody wants to start a campaign to reopen it, you have my unconditional support!
11-06-2019, 07:02 PM
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eman1948 Offline
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#37
Smile  RE: Is TT sustainable
Re-opening the Lido would be rather difficult, had good times there in the 70s Susie Quatro was a regular, from there to the Casino till 5.30 in the morning. Was glad to get back to work to recover Lol.
11-06-2019, 07:52 PM
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roger9650 Offline
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#38
RE: Is TT sustainable
I don't know whether it's sustainable or not but the charm ran out for me many years ago.  Having been brought up on the halcyon days of the sixties that's hardly surprising.  No shortage of ferries, bikes parked side by side along the whole of the prom, and every class completely different; even the fifties were worth watching!  Mountain road rarely if ever closed and as long as it wasn't misty racing went ahead.  The bikes were real factory racers not converted road machines and overall it had a completely different feel. I can see why dry roads are essential now but I wouldn't call that progress.  As for it's sustainability somehow I can't see it lasting more than another 10 years.  The nanny state, insurance and a less than enthusiastic local population will put paid to it, not to mention the blatant exploitation of visitors.  

For anyone who wants a bit of the old TT feeling the answer lies in NI.  I've never been able to quite understand how the NW200 has become so big, clever PR over substance I suppose, but the Ulster still retains a lot of the old charm.  With the added advantage that the man in front is the leader.  Add in £84 return for bike and rider from Cairnryan and reasonable accommodation you have the complete package - just as long as it's not raining!

12-06-2019, 12:54 PM
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Sam Pato Offline
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#39
RE: Is TT sustainable
Although I only view from the outside these days I'm a lot less pessimistic. My perception is that the event is about as strong as it could be in the modern world. Its certainly waaaayyy stronger than the late 90's when DJ and a handful of others were lapping at 120+ and the tail of the field was just cracking 100mph laps.

The older crowd has probably got a lot to do with disposable income and the change in social norms (lots of younger people live their lives vicariously watching stuff online).

I reckon that there is still quite a few doing very well out of it and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future because it is such a unique event (and because of the reputation of danger).

The only certainty in life is change.
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13-06-2019, 12:18 AM
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Alfie Noakes Offline
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#40
RE: Is TT sustainable
That's the period early 90's+ I was talking about Sam when the Senior race grid was made up with 250's and 600's(not detracting at all from those riders) as well as the bigger cc bikes and it's a big part of why the race page in the program was blank, the organisers didn't know who would be available apart from maybe the bigger teams at the end of race week due to accident/mechanical attrition, from hands/eyes on experience as a rider the paddock area was nowhere near as busy as it is these days on Senior race day, the popular spectator areas were busy but away from them the island was relatively quiet compared to today towards the end of race week. I'm more than happy sitting in a field etc and myself and mates won't ever be doing the VIP thing but there are lots of people informed or not these days who want or require creature comforts and sugar coating and along with that are happy to pay for such things, as mentioned by others I don't think a lack of money or desire will see the racing on the Island curtailed it will be insurance/H&S that will be the issue and going on ever increasing hands on H&S/Insurance experience in Facilities/Construction industry I'd be quietly content with the races going on much as they are for as long as possible as some of the costs now for construction projects/jobs that could be done safely just a few years ago are ridiculous because of new regs/rules stifling the whole process.
13-06-2019, 11:42 AM
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