I wanted to try and raise some interest in this topic
Having been a real critic of the idea, I want to give the
people involved the benefit of the doubt
From what I have been able to glean, there are some really
interesting projects out there with some interesting people
behind them
I may have more to tell soon if anyone is interested?

The element of this new race idea that really appeals to
me is the use of British brains to come up with new ideas and
technology
We have done it before lets do it again
(we being Britain I mean!)

MV Wrote:I wanted to try and raise some interest in this topic
Having been a real critic of the idea, I want to give the
people involved the benefit of the doubt
From what I have been able to glean, there are some really
interesting projects out there with some interesting people
behind them
I may have more to tell soon if anyone is interested?

The element of this new race idea that really appeals to
me is the use of British brains to come up with new ideas and
technology
We have done it before lets do it again
(we being Britain I mean!)

I went to the presentation last night and wanted to be impressed, but came away disappointed. The one manufacturer who turned up had only a computer drawing to look at, no bike to examine or ride around the hotel on. If there had been a real bike there Im sure more people would have been won over. They did have Ollie Lindsdell signed up to ride for them which is a plus point. More worrying was the fact that they had politicians endorsing the concept, worse than that it was that weasel Shimmin whose all island speedlimit would have killed visitor numbers to the TT had our referendum not scuppered it. Politicians only see whats in it for them, the first fatal accident on an electric bike and they would soon backtrack and disown the idea. So dont rely on them for support through difficult times.
The TTMA listened and asked a few polite questions from which we learned that the bikes will look like the CBR's and GSX's we are already sick of seeing and be led round silently by a pace car.
Well maybe that sounds exiting to the TTX supporters and maybe marginally more exiting than the 5 bike parade lap as at this years senior, so bring it on.

There's been a long running debate over on the 'other channel' about this:

http://www.iomtt.com/Home/Forum/ShowPost...tID=124256

I can't say I'm in favour of this at all. You may gain that impression from my posts on the above thread

Right, let me explain where I am coming from
Like sticky and others, I am not keen on the idea of the TTXGP
Or should I say. I am keen on the idea but not keen on the way the organisers seem to be going
about it
From a spectator(read paying Joe public) point of view, it stinks
We were fobbed off with the Billown "TT" races with the excuse that there was no room on the
Mountain Circuit calendar for real 125 AND 250 TTs
Yet magically, they find that they can fit in the new untried and highly unlikely TTXGP
There are so many reasons why it appears to be struggling to get off the ground, at least for 2009

So,you ask, whats MV wittering on aout

Well, I really want to focus attention on the projects being worked on by some technically very clever
people
The fact that they are working hard on bikes to meet the spec for potential TT race bikes with some
modest success, deserves encouragement and recognition, dont you think?

I am keeping an eye on one small team in particular and will be supporting them in spirit if not more

Oh, and as an aside, havent KTM announced a serious off road electric competition bike?

Dear All.

My name is Peter Hindley, and I would like to offer my opinion regrding the TTXGP. I realise most of the discussion has taken place on IOMTT, but I can't register there (for some reason) and I'm too mad to wait !!. If someone can copy this over there, i'd appreciate it greatly.

I'll break it down into
"the meeting at the Hilton on Friday",
"Why the hell do we need the event"
and "bloody 2 strokes"

Thanks in advance for reading....................

"The meeting"

I was there. Sitting in the middle of the room with a clear view. I listened to John Shimmin who was refreshingly honest stating he was neither a TT fan, nor a Tree hugger, but recognised that the future could well be in this direction, and his interest was in publicity for the Island. Fair enough.
A bloke from a design company showed a 3D CAD model of his propsed entry. I AM a CAD design engineer, and although the model was clearly a concept, it would take a reasonable amount of thought to produce. Interestingly, the model had hub centre steering, and it is to be ridden by Ollie Linsdell. Ollie's father Steve rode a heavily modified Yamaha GTS with sucsess at the TT praising the Stability of the front end. Could be a smart Partnership.............I have SolidEdge (3DCAD system) at home, so if "Turbineman" would like to come round, I'll time him on producing something similar.

The bloke heading up the team was clearly sucsessfull and intelligent, but was NOT a biker. That was obvious. A lot of the people involved in this are new to bikes, coming from electronics or other industries.
Mr. Hussain spoke for around an hour, maybe less. He impressed me with his honesty and vision of the concept. He stated on several occasions that he DID NOT HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS as this is a ground breaking project. His background is consumer electronics, and yet forum members seem intent on picking holes in his lack of knowledge regarding the mechanics of marshalling, TT course licencing or the ACU blue book. How the hell would he know this stuff ?. He took questions at the end (brave move if you ask me !!)
Considering all the venom pouring from the forum, the questions revolved around safety concerns from what I remember and one regarding the overall carbon footprint of the event.
"rob77" stated that the race would run behind a car. At no point did I hear this from anyone. Mr. Hussain seems to want a race at as high a speed as possible. The team attending hoped for a 110 top speed and a 90 lap.

Why the hell do we need the event.
Oil is running out people !!.

We consume 3 barrells for every one we find.

The oil that is left is either difficult (expensive) to extract or in ecologically sensitive areas. E.g arctic.

Consumption is increasing fast. If you earn 20k, you are in the top 2% of the world's earners. The remaining 98% want our lifestyle too. They want to consume.

If we can agree that the above is true, then in 100 years time no one will race combustion engines. What about 50 years, 25 ?. 10..........We will make the shift at some point, so why not now ?.

One of the first car races in America (1890 odd I think) was between an electric, petrol and steam car. The electric won. So why did we persue internal combustion ?.
Steam cars too messy, take too long to warm up.
Electric. Limited range, heavy lead-acid batteries, and a long charge time.
Petrol. Fill up at the next station, the fuel is universal between manufactures, so we developed petrol engines which are only 30% efficient !!.

Technology has evolved. Electric motors are 98% efficient and super-capacitors can be chaged up almost instantly. The range issue is still there, but development will see improvements. The tipping point is within sight.

Why should the Isle of Man not be first to market and provide a platform for development ?.

"Bloody 2 strokes"

I love em. I have 8 motorcycles, 1 is a four stroke. 3 are grand-prix bikes. I still race 2 of them I feel qualified to speak.

So, "Kwakaman" and all the others here are some facts for you:-

YOU CAN STILL RIDE A TWO_STROKE AT THE TT !!!!!!
I stand to be corrected (and sincere apologies if I am wrong, someone please correct me) You can ride a 250 in the 600 class, Maybe even 500 in the Senior (definatly not sure about that).

So why don't we have a class for 2 strokes ?.

1. It's a technological cul-de-sac. Emissions legislation has killed them stone dead. On the road, motocross, road racing everywhere. Oil in the petrol you see......Manufacturers can't sell them therefore don't develop them.
2. They are expensive. Most riders are not sponsored. A lightly tuned 600 will go 2 seasons on an engine. Grand-prix 2-strokes require a ring at 100 miles, piston a 250 miles, and a crank at 500 miles. cylinder at 1000 miles. So at the TT, 16 laps (4 race, 12 practice) 40 miles a lap = 640 miles. That equals 6 rings (£72) 3 pistons (£360) and 2 cranks (£190 exchange) A total of £632
N.B these costs are for a 125. AT LEAST DOUBLE THEM FOR A 250.

PLUS all the costs of running the 4 stroke as well as gaskets and time taking the bloody thing apart every night.

3. You can't actually buy one. Yamaha sold 12 (Twelve) 250's last year worldwide and no 125's. Honda sold quite a few 125's and no 250's. After next year you cannot buy a grand prix 2-stroke only lease one from aprilia or KTM at huge cost.

How the hell can you have a race series for bikes you can't buy ?.

This is why we have predominatly 4-stroke production based racing.


In conclusion.

I belive the TT will stagnate and die if we don't do something. People are always complaining of "same race 4 tmes" , and yet when you are offered something totally different you pull it apart ?.

Mr Hussain WILL hold this even somewhere, so why not here ?. Is HE the right man for the job ?. I am not sure, but he DID put his head up and try to do something positive. At least give him the chance to cock it up !!.

Lastly to "sticky" and I quote "if this is what motosport and the TT is going to become then maybe it would be better to let it end "...............I care more about the future of the TT than that !!. you seem so passionate about kicking the TTXGP (truly awful name)concept, but obviously don't support the TT at all.

At the moment the race is one lap, and if you are all right,the spectators will leave in droves and the bikes will race to the sound of tumbleweed. You have nothing to fear. It will be same-old-same-old again in 2010 and we can look forward to another 100 years of the internal cobustion engine.

Can't we ?

Done Peter

Wow Peter

I did say I wanted to start a debate and you certainly picked up the ball and ran with it

Sorry, got technical problems here!

I would like to think that we may just see some progress with one or two eco racers

As I said earlier, there ARE some clever people on the case

If you are reding this, lets hear from you

As posted on iomtt.com:

"Lastly to "sticky" and I quote "if this is what motorsport and the TT is going to become then maybe it would be better to let it end "...............I care more about the future of the TT than that !!. you seem so passionate about kicking the TTXGP (truly awful name)concept, but obviously don't support the TT at all."

Peter,

Since 1964 I have been to 43 TTs, 15 Manx GPs and a Manx Rally. Don't be telling me I don't support the TT. I do - far more than you know. What I do not support is this concept at this time. For the umpteenth time - it's too soon. As I've said before, the best thing to have done would be to announce it now but to run at the Mountain Course centenary, thus giving ALL interested parties enough time to perfect this technology for racing and to have a meaningful entry.

In fact I've been thinking.... why have it at the TT at all? Why not give TTXGP it's own date some other time and let it stand on it's own merits. Those that want it can come, those that don't have the choice to stay away - and I'm not being facetious here.



To finish for the moment, for one of the main movers in a new racing concept NOT to have all the answers, is, in my opinion, unacceptable. If you're going to race around the TT course, my point of view is that you need to have all the bases covered. I go back to the point about it being too soon.

I don't know if you've read all the posts Peter, or indeed all the threads (there are a few others) but I HAVE said that if it does turn out to be a success with a full field of machines achieving the promised 'Grand Prix' speeds, then I'll go on tt.com and eat humble pie. I stand by that comment.

Well said sticky!
Some good points there

This is the kind of discussion thats needed
I agree about the choice of venue
Surely somewhere like Thruxton would have been a good place to hold the first race
I feel that soembody got a bit carried away

Speaking personally, I am by NO means against the concept but not at the TT to START!

Hi Guys,
Hell of a first post this, hope I don't rant too much!
I hope to be entering a bike in the TTXGP next year, and am doing all in my power to produce an exciting, safe and hopefully winning entry.

The reason I am working hard to promote electric vehicles is, as Peter said above, petrol has had its day. The vast majority of wars and associated deaths in my lifetime have been all about the availability of oil, it should be painfully obvious by now that it is a dwindling resource and we should know better than fritter it away having fun driving vehicles that manage less than 25% efficiency. There IS a need to do this....in fact, it is possibly the most important improvement we could make to our vehicles. Peter is right, one day racing will be banned if we can't find a way to do it more efficiently/cleanly.
Any safety concerns will be addressed by the marshals/organisers, if the vehicles are not safe they wont race. I see little point in all of you declaring that the vehicles must be more dangerous than the petrol bikes currently used, especially since most of you know little or nothing about EV'S and have no experience to make these claims.
Whether or not the TTXGP will be exciting enough for you you can only wait and see...in short, the fact that so few seem willing to even give it a chance is precisely the reason why we have been stuck with stinky inefficient loud bikes for so long.
Whether or not the TT is the place to start, again only history will know, but one things for sure, if the TTXGP is derailed now it will harm electric motorsports for years to come, whether or not the time is right.
If the riders are ready to ride our machine, the TT is ready to host it, the marshals declare its safe (or as safe as racing under these conditions gets), and the vehicle producers want to make new competitive machines then whats the problem?

And sorry MV, which were the "good points" from Sticky's post? Apart from hinting that Azhar Hussain, who is just one of the many people organising the event, should be all powerfull and know ALL the answers, there wasn't really any "point" there, apart form him telling us how qualified he is to give his opinion.
I would urge anyone wishing to criticise the poeple commited to organising and bringing you this wonderfull TT event year after year to consider that perhaps they know what they are doing, and are in fact trying to give motoracing/TT a viable future as well as making new racing classes that will undoubtably in the future present many new and interesting vehicles to the racetrack.

Sorry to be so aggressive, just trying to provoke some real arguments or reasons why this event shouldn't go ahead. (i've heard nothing to make me think this is the case apart from the bad feelings and negativity I found on the TT forums, it sounds like you are saying "This is OUR TT, you go get your own!)
I have been in contact with MV, and hope he will take the time to come try an electric motorcycle and report back to you on just how it feels. I can tell you all that all of the 20+ motorcyclists who have tried one so far were all very impressed, and I for one will never go back to riding a petrol bike (yes, I was once a petrol head and raced proddie 2 strokes and snetterton/donnington/etc).
Anyone else wishing to come and check things out here near Brighton UK are more than welcome, and for those living in Ireland I can put you in touch with a chap just finishing a conversion who would be glad to meet (Dublin area) and show what they can do.
Now, off to look for a suitably disgusting recipe for "humble pie" to feed my good friend Sticky at the end of the race

Steve
http://www.jozzbikes.co.uk

I think that this should be given all the help it can. All those people who support the TT as an event should be backing this idea. The Island has long had a history of being the first in these things and we should continue that HISTORY of the event. I am sure the same thing was said all those years ago when the two strokes arrived and all those with 4 stroke machines said 'noisey smokey pieces of rubbish, what do we want them lot here for'. Well I think I will leave Sticky to his wicket so to speak and try to back this event. Whether any will finish as the climb out of Ramsey seems to be a 'sticky' point but lets hope they will find it ok. As for why have we not got 2 stokers at the Mountain, well this has been all said before, the riders didn't want it. they were more than happy to race around the Southern circuit, and there were the decenters there who said it would never be classed as a TT win ..... well maybe not but it ran, and the riders seemed to enjoy it. After all they are the ones putting their necks on the line, you carn't really force them to dio it can you. As for a working model, I think they are already out there and I think ollie has already had a go on a prototype. As for getting one for the Hilton, then yes I totally agree maybe there should have been one there.

Well finally, as for not having all the answers, even the ACU haven't all the answers yet as they are still not so sure about the regs, so how can we expect him to have the answers if the regs are being finalised.

Come on MV and Sticky, try to get behind a project that might just come off, come on I know you can do it if you really tried, open your minds to the idea at least ......

I think you have misunderstood me somwhat (or i didnt explain myself clearly!)
My point was that after being against the idea, at least at the TT TO START, I AM open to
the idea nom
The whole point of starting this thread was to get people debating the "ins and outs"
You can see from Steves post that HE is full of enthusiasm
I say more power to HIS elbow

I have been discussing the noise/sound issue with Steve and we thought perhaps MP3 players
could be used to create sound
lol

Any thoughts on THAT?

I too was at the presentation on Friday night. Peter Hindley has given an impressive, balanced, and very accurate account of what was on offer.

Gordon Bennett, I'm surprised and disappointed that so many "TT Fans" have conveniently forgotten the history of their chosen sport that evolved initially in a whirl of invention and innovation. Faced with, potentially, an even greater step in the development of world transport taking place on the TT Course, many have chosen to put their heads in the sand, and many more have decided to pour scorn on the very idea of change.

I am uncertain as to whether this project will remain a part of TT events in years to come. I suspect that the Isle of Man TT may host this as another ground-breaking first, but it may quickly move on to another venue. However, there can be no more appropriate stage for its introduction.

If the TTXGP gets off the ground in 2009, in any form, it will be a remarkable achievement in world terms. I believe that we should support it, if only for the new pioneering spirit that Azhar Hussain is trying to bring to the Isle of Man, at a time when support could not be more difficult to find.

I'm going to hold fire on this for a few days. I'm at the bike show press day on thursday and I believe TTXGP are there. I may go and ask questions.

Oh, by the way Jozzer, I have my old dad living with me and there is nothing, repeat nothing you could do recipe wise that would come close to the horror of his cooking, although I would ask you to avoid stewed tomatoes. I can't look them in the eye since some unpleasantness in the Bay of Biscay in 1971...

sticky

I am looking forward to your comments on the NEC and TTXGP

Nice to see we are all "playing nicely"

Even from different view points!

I have been reading this discussion with interest & if i may i would like to add my own thoughts on the subject.

My first visit to the IOM TT was in 1967 when i went over with my brother on one of the Day Trips run by one of the Bike Mags (Anyone else remember them !). I remember how fast !! i thought the 50cc bikes went down Bray & also walking back to the Finish Line & seeing the great SMBH win the Senior. Needless to say i was back for the week the following year, & since then i have witnessed such things as Ago making his famous leap, i saw the battles ! of the 125 & 250's with Phil Read & the brilliant little Bill Ivy. Then there where the 70's culminating in Mikes fantastic return, & the 80's with Joey of course. My last year for a while was 1992 cheering on Hizzy of course, oh the memory of that race. For several reasons i never returned until 2005 when i went to the Manx GP, this of course sowed the seeds for the 'must be there for 2007' & i was. This brings me on i suppose to the reason for this post, & my thoughts on the present.

I really don't know the answer for the future of the event i suppose, & i know that things will not / can not stay the way they are for ever.
But i do know the memories of being down Bray Hill for early morning practice & still hearing those 'Noisy Bikes', Two Strokes & all disappearing for miles all the way through Union Mills still sends a shiver up my spine.
Will Silent Electric Machines still have the same effect !!, sorry for me personally no. For future fans, who knows. I am really glad i have had the privilege & good fortune to be there when i was.

As a footnote, i am not disagreeing with anyone's thoughts or ideas, good luck.

Dave.

It sounds as though your early experience of the TT is similar to my own. 1967 was my 3rd TT - I was 7 years old, so among my earliest TT memories is the sound of the Honda 6, the 4 cylinder Yamaha & Suzuki 2 strokes and big singles sounding like a squadron of bombers coming down the Mountain Mile.

The experience has been progressively diluted as years have passed and i guess this whole TTXGP thing was/is the final straw for me. While I understand it may be technically challenging (& interesting if you like that kind of thing) to me it isn't and never can be 'motorsport'. And it's motorsport that's been a huge passion in my life since I was knee high.

Hmm, "Motor" sport is EXACTLY what the TTXGP will be....EngineSport is what you are getting nostalgic over.
So lets get this straight, the only reason the TT is interesting is the sound of wasted energy?

Hmmm put it this way, if you can change the sound from a milk float to that of an MV? your on to a winner.