Hello,
My late father had two GP 250 Model 50 New Imperials here in Australia. I have been in contact with the New Imperial Association and they inform me that the engine in the 1933 New Imp is the first engine listed in the first batch of GP motors. My father raced one of these New Imperials at Bathurst in 1951. At present I am unsure when these entered Australia. The previous owner said that the 1935 GP New Imp was raced at the Isle of Man. The Association does not have any evidence of this. Most New Imps were works models although privateers may have raced the GP Model 50.
Is there any info on the GP's being raced at the Isle of Man or Manx?
Cec Weatherby, an Australian, raced in the 1933 Isle of Man on a New Imp. Any photos? Was this a works or GP, although I don't think the GP's came out until after the Isle of Man that year. Could he have bought a 33 GP back to Australia when he returned. It does seem odd that the first ever GP should turn up in Australia.
Any info on this appreciated.
Peter

(07-08-2009, 01:49 PM)aussieracer Wrote: Hello,
My late father had two GP 250 Model 50 New Imperials here in Australia. I have been in contact with the New Imperial Association and they inform me that the engine in the 1933 New Imp is the first engine listed in the first batch of GP motors. My father raced one of these New Imperials at Bathurst in 1951. At present I am unsure when these entered Australia. The previous owner said that the 1935 GP New Imp was raced at the Isle of Man. The Association does not have any evidence of this. Most New Imps were works models although privateers may have raced the GP Model 50.
Is there any info on the GP's being raced at the Isle of Man or Manx?
Cec Weatherby, an Australian, raced in the 1933 Isle of Man on a New Imp. Any photos? Was this a works or GP, although I don't think the GP's came out until after the Isle of Man that year. Could he have bought a 33 GP back to Australia when he returned. It does seem odd that the first ever GP should turn up in Australia.
Any info on this appreciated.
Peter

Hi, if our learned ones from the northern hemisphere cannot answer this one (although I am very confident they will) pm me as I have some people in Australia who just might know the answer.
Jan

(07-08-2009, 10:33 PM)Jan Grainger Wrote:

(07-08-2009, 01:49 PM)aussieracer Wrote: Hello,
My late father had two GP 250 Model 50 New Imperials here in Australia. I have been in contact with the New Imperial Association and they inform me that the engine in the 1933 New Imp is the first engine listed in the first batch of GP motors. My father raced one of these New Imperials at Bathurst in 1951. At present I am unsure when these entered Australia. The previous owner said that the 1935 GP New Imp was raced at the Isle of Man. The Association does not have any evidence of this. Most New Imps were works models although privateers may have raced the GP Model 50.
Is there any info on the GP's being raced at the Isle of Man or Manx?
Cec Weatherby, an Australian, raced in the 1933 Isle of Man on a New Imp. Any photos? Was this a works or GP, although I don't think the GP's came out until after the Isle of Man that year. Could he have bought a 33 GP back to Australia when he returned. It does seem odd that the first ever GP should turn up in Australia.
Any info on this appreciated.
Peter

Hi, if our learned ones from the northern hemisphere cannot answer this one (although I am very confident they will) pm me as I have some people in Australia who just might know the answer.
Jan

Go for it Jan -- I have no bl**dy idea!!

Sorry Aussieracer, I can't help, but I can't believe that Larry has drawn a blank. I bet not for long though he will be going through his archives.

Cecil Weatherby rode this New Imperial in the 1933 Lightweight; is this the machine in question?

Have forward the question together with the pic to my two wise gentlemen down under. Peter, it's a pity I don't know your surname. That would help.
Jan

With regard to works 'specials' appearing Down Under. I know that Veloce sold some of their 'tool-room' specials to Australia, on the strict understanding that no spares were available from Hall Green. This did not deter the guys, they made and rebuilt the machines as required. Perhaps other manufacturers used the same method.

This is the information I have come across so far in relation to 250 New Imperials being raced in Australia, I sent this email to Jan:
Hello Jan,
My name is Peter Shannon. The previous owner of the 1935 IOM GP 250, said it was raced on the Isle of Man. In November 1933 'O. Muller' was racing a New Imp in Australia and I know Cec Weatherby raced at the Isle of Man on a New Imp in 1933 and was racing a 250 New Imp back here in Australia in 1934 as well as somebody by the name H Lever on another 250. Also in 1933 at the 1933 TT here in Australia a 'L. Thomas' from South Australia was racing a New Imp (however I am not sure what time of year this was as the GP's may not have been built then.)
There was also Les Barnett from Victoria in Australia racing a genuine IOM GP250 New Imp from 1935 till he sold it in 1949. Also in NSW a 'C. Exley' in 1937 at a TT here in Australia was racing a 250 New Imperial.

I am not sure if any of the above info will help in solving where my father's 2 GP250 New Imps came from, but it may narrow the search.
Any help appreciated.
Peter shannon.



The photo of Cec Weatherby posted by Bill is a genuine "works"
racer. It has the external oil pump in view on the lower crankcase plus the larger tank. The GP250's had a pistol grip shaped tank. I am not sure what type of New Imp that Cec Weatherby was racing here in Australia in 1934 after his return from the Isle of Man the previous year.

Any response Jan from your Australian contacts??







Above two photos of the late Joe Shannon's GP250 New Imperial. It has a 1935 GP frame and is fitted with the first engine from the first batch of GP250 engines that were first made in 1933.





The late Joe Shannon's 1935 GP250 that was extensively raced in Australia. It won the 250 Australian TT in 1959 with Eric Hinton racing it.






Another shot of the racing 1935 GP from about 1985






A photo of one of the GP250 New Imps from the early 1950's. Note the NSW registration plate.

I hope someone is able to shed light on just who and how these came to Australia?

Regards,

Peter Shannon

Hi Peter,
Drew a blank. So sorry. It is most unusuable that we cannot get an answer to questions on this forum. Jim Scaysbrook was unable to help either. You would probably know Jim and if you forwarded your previous posting on this site to Jim it may help a little. I have his e-mail address if you need it.
Fabulous photo of Cec from Bill Snelling's collection. Jim was most impressed.
Jan

Hi,

I read with interest the current thread about New Imperials, and thought that perhaps you may be interested in the following story.

When I was a "young" apprentice working in the experemental/development/& competitions department at BSA during the early 1960's my forman was a elderley "gentleman" named Sam Jones. Sam often used to tell me of his racing experiences and one day told me that he used to race New Imperials as a factory rider in the isle of man TT. He told me that he applied for, and was appointed a "factory" rider after answering a advertisment for the job from a Birmingham newspaper !. He added that New Imperial gave him some money so he could purchase his racing clothing that was a pair of military trousers, a white polo neck jumper and a pair of boots, these were purchased from a army and Navy store called Oswald Bailey in Birmingham. I can remember a photograph that Sam showed me, It showed him opening a gate somewhere on the TT course during his race, he had a spare tyre over his shoulder and tucked under his arm fastened by a belt around his waist !.

I contacted Bill Snelling to see if he had any photo's of Sam racing in the TT, Bill confirmed that Sam Raced in the TT between 1923/29 on a mixture of New Imperial and Levis machines, and he is searching his archives for photographs.

Pat.

Hello again Bill,
I have just come across a series of photos on the Flickr website belonging to Jeff 'bubbles44' showing a few shots of the 1933 IOM TT Lightweight machines. Jeff tells me his father sailed across with a few friends and took these photos:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeffspiccie...949060209/

He has kindly given me permission to post them on here.

Of particular interest to me is the Cec Weatherby machine photo below:



I am not sure when this photo was taken but it appears pre-race given Cec's clothing and the happy demeanour (He did not finish the race!).

There appears to be some anomalies with the photo of this machine compared to the photo posted by Bill above. Firstly there is no number on the rear in Bill's photo and I just cannot makeout the number on the front in Bill's photo but it doesn't look like 31.

Also there appears to be some attachment to the oil tank filler in Jeff's photo that does not appear in Bill's photo and in Bill's photo there is a second rear higher footrest that Cec no doubt used once in top gear that is not visible in Jeff's photo.

Can anyone provide some info on the numbering of these bikes pre-race and after. And could Cec be on another bike for the after race shots.

Perhaps someone with a program may be able to identify the number of Cec's bike in that race.

Again any help appreciated.

Regards,
Peter Shannon

Of particular interest to me is the Cec Weatherby machine photo below:



I am not sure when this photo was taken but it appears pre-race given Cec's clothing and the happy demeanour (He did not finish the race!).

There appears to be some anomalies with the photo of this machine compared to the photo posted by Bill above. Firstly there is no number on the rear in Bill's photo and I just cannot makeout the number on the front in Bill's photo but it doesn't look like 31.

Also there appears to be some attachment to the oil tank filler in Jeff's photo that does not appear in Bill's photo and in Bill's photo there is a second rear higher footrest that Cec no doubt used once in top gear that is not visible in Jeff's photo.

Can anyone provide some info on the numbering of these bikes pre-race and after. And could Cec be on another bike for the after race shots.

Perhaps someone with a program may be able to identify the number of Cec's bike in that race.

Again any help appreciated.

Regards,
Peter Shannon
[/quote]

Hi Peter

The photo of Cec Weatherby was taken as he pushes from the pre-race "Weigh-in" in 1933, when his number was indeed 31 - last Lightweight starter.

As to missing number plates, side plates were not required in practice - a useful point when dating photos as precisely as possible!

There also seems to be the rearward footrests just below the side plate.

The fitting on the oil tank filler would be a "crossover" neck necessary for the race, when all work had to be done from the pit wall which was, of course, on the left. In practice, when Bill's photo was taken, this need did not exist.

Nortons used a similar system, with an extended neck.

Good luck with the hunt.

Thank you Larryd for that info.
It clears up the number situation and also when the two photos were taken.
So Bill's photo is showing Cec Weatherby during practice as it has no side numbers plate.
I have another anomaly regarding the 1933 photos.
This one below is also from Jeff 'bubbles44' on Flickr, which I now know to be taken as the bike was pushed from the pre-race "weigh-in". It is Ted Mellors New Imperial:




Also just recently Aherl from the Netherlands had a photo of Ted Mellors on Ebay and is was said to have been taken after he came 7th at the 1933 IOMTT.



Given that the numbers on these two photos are different, should I assume that when Aherl says taken "after" the 1933 IOMTT to mean a long time after - in fact it could be even another event.
In fact I also recall contacting Aherl in the past as that persons claims as to when photos were taken of another machine could not possibly have been correct as the machine that it was claimed to be hadn't even been made on the claimed date of the photo.

Given what I have just said, I think I have answered my own question. The discrepancy in numbers on the Ted Mellors machine must be due to Aherl being incorrect as to the date of his Ted Mellors photo?? Any comments on this conclusion or could have the numbers have been changed before and after the event??


Peter Shannon

Quote:Also just recently Aherl from the Netherlands had a photo of Ted Mellors on Ebay and is was said to have been taken after he came 7th at the 1933 IOMTT.



Given that the numbers on these two photos are different, should I assume that when Aherl says taken "after" the 1933 IOMTT to mean a long time after - in fact it could be even another event.
In fact I also recall contacting Aherl in the past as that persons claims as to when photos were taken of another machine could not possibly have been correct as the machine that it was claimed to be hadn't even been made on the claimed date of the photo.

Given what I have just said, I think I have answered my own question. The discrepancy in numbers on the Ted Mellors machine must be due to Aherl being incorrect as to the date of his Ted Mellors photo?? Any comments on this conclusion or could have the numbers have been changed before and after the event??


Peter Shannon

Alas Peter, when I see "Ebay" my cynical button pops up !!

You are of course correct - Ted Mellors rode the New Imp under No 27 in the 1931 Lightweight TT.

Hello Peter

Some very interesting photos - one thing to remember when looking at unlabelled photos and race numbers is that New Imps persevered in the Junior races too until 1934 with the bikes looking virtually identical [as do the production racer models 50 and 60 - 250/350 respectively]
Looking at the Ted Mellors photos let me recommend his book 'Continental Circus' - the first part of which is all about him racing for New Imperial in this period
Good luck with your quest for racing history - I've been doing something similar for about 30 years but it really would be 'luck' after all this time
I do think you're better looking at the MGP for clues - Bill S has a lot of photos - from the 250 race proper starting in '34 there was a good selection of NI's from very standard GP models to 'escaped' works type machines

Ian

Quote:Also just recently Aherl from the Netherlands had a photo of Ted Mellors on Ebay and is was said to have been taken after he came 7th at the 1933 IOMTT.



Given that the numbers on these two photos are different, should I assume that when Aherl says taken "after" the 1933 IOMTT to mean a long time after - in fact it could be even another event.
In fact I also recall contacting Aherl in the past as that persons claims as to when photos were taken of another machine could not possibly have been correct as the machine that it was claimed to be hadn't even been made on the claimed date of the photo.

Given what I have just said, I think I have answered my own question. The discrepancy in numbers on the Ted Mellors machine must be due to Aherl being incorrect as to the date of his Ted Mellors photo?? Any comments on this conclusion or could have the numbers have been changed before and after the event??


Peter Shannon

Alas Peter, when I see "Ebay" my cynical button pops up !!

You are of course correct - Ted Mellors rode the New Imp under No 27 in the 1931 Lightweight TT.


[/quote]

Thank you Larry and Ian for your input.
I have recently been buying a few of G.S. Davisons books and have looked at the Continental Circus for relevant info, unfortunately I think from recollection Ted Mellors left New Imperial or his story with New Imperial ends just short of the 1933 Manx - a race that I am particularly interested in.

The reason I was concentrating on the 1933 IOMTT was to try and nail down just which bike was actually ridden by Cec Weatherby. It seems confirmed that he was riding a "works' New Imp.

Given that the 'works' bikes rarely escaped I doubt that Cec was riding a works bike here(Australia) in January 1934.

Both Jimmy Pringle and Cec Weatherby were selected by the Auto Cycle Council of Australia (ACCA) to be Australia's representatives at the 1933 IOMTT. Jimmy Pringle was actually slated down to ride for New Imperial in the Lightweight TT but for some reason it was Cec Weatherby who actually rode the New Imp in the race. It was acknowledged in the Australian motorcycle press at the time that Jimmy Pringle would no doubt bring some racing machinery back with him when he returned to Australia.
Both Cec and Jimmy were injured at the IOM and both were hospitalised. Jimmy returned to Australia before Cec. Cec returned to Australia by boat on 8 September 1933 just about a week and a half after my fathers New Imp was built and 3 days after the 1933 Junior/Lightweight Manx.
Cec at the time was involved in the sales of motorcycles presumably from a shop at Ashfield NSW.
Given the fact that Cec did not race a New Imp in Australia till late January 1934 it is a possibility for Cec's machine to have been used in the 1933 Manx and be shipped to Australia.

This scenario all hinges on whether I can come across some close photos of the New Imps used by Ron Harris and Bob Foster to see whether they were the two new GP Model 50's or were works bikes.

From the research I have done so far on Ron Harris, it appears he bought his own Norton to ride in the Senior Manx and he was in the business of selling racing motorcycles. It is also possible he bought his New Imp to go racing in the Lightweight and if this were the case he would be Model 50 Grand Prix mounted..
In later years he went on to run Lotus racing cars. It appears at the time of Ron's passing he had a 4 year old daughter, who just recently on another forum said that she had a lot of photos of Ron racing, so another avenue to chase up.

Perhaps someone on this forum might know if works bikes were allowed in the 1933 Manx.
I think I recall reading somewhere that until 1930 the Manx was known as the 'Amatuer' races, so would have the New Imperial factory have been allowed to enter Ron Harris and Bob Foster on 'Works' New Imperial's from the factory or would Ron and Bob have had to enter their own machines?? This might help narrow down whether they were on 'works' bikes or Model 50 GP bikes.

Again thanks for your help Larry and Ian.

I think I know who Ian is - a regular campaigner on his Model 50??

Also I have just received two photos from Chas Lipscombe here in Australia of a Model 50 being raced in most probably Australia that I will send to you Ian by private message.

All help appreciated.
Thanks.

Peter Shannon

Regarding Ces smiling despite not finishing, well I can only ever remember him smiling. I nice guy.