Got mine last night. Can't wait for next weekend...bring on the clangers!

Got mine in the post this morning. Fantastic entry in the newcomers, the manx and TT has a very bright future! I was however very dissapointed to see only 62 entries in the Senior Classic, where have they all gone? The first time I went to the Manx in approx 1994, there were about 120 entries. The way it`s going they`ll be combining the Senior Classics with the Post Classics next year!

(13-08-2009, 07:08 PM)dellrandall Wrote: Got mine in the post this morning. Fantastic entry in the newcomers, the manx and TT has a very bright future! I was however very dissapointed to see only 62 entries in the Senior Classic, where have they all gone? The first time I went to the Manx in approx 1994, there were about 120 entries. The way it`s going they`ll be combining the Senior Classics with the Post Classics next year!

1. Paton (up 10bhp this year I hear)
2. MV
3. Mountain Licence (circuit time for the classics)
4. Always last practice

Not necessarily in that order..........

[quote='an old man returns' pid='39928' dateline='1250250411']
[quote]

1. Paton (up 10bhp this year I hear)
2. MV
3. Mountain Licence (circuit time for the classics)
4. Always last practice

Not necessarily in that order..........
[/quote]

Spot on - although it is sad to admit. In respect of being last in practice, until quite recently it never used to be that way (as I'm sure most of us are aware.) I suspect that oil spillage scares are to blame for relegating the classics to the graveyard slot.

(14-08-2009, 11:09 PM)Manx Badger Wrote: [quote='an old man returns' pid='39928' dateline='1250250411']

Quote:1. Paton (up 10bhp this year I hear)
2. MV
3. Mountain Licence (circuit time for the classics)
4. Always last practice

Not necessarily in that order..........

Spot on - although it is sad to admit. In respect of being last in practice, until quite recently it never used to be that way (as I'm sure most of us are aware.) I suspect that oil spillage scares are to blame for relegating the classics to the graveyard slot.

I think you have only got one of the two big reasons.
If you look back through the programs the two big drops in entries came after they allowed the CB Honda’s back in and when they introduced the course license. Since then the numbers have been in steady decline.

The other problem is there is no one new coming in to classic racing. Unless there is major change in the way they run at the short circuit meetings I can’t see many new people coming in.

What’s worse is there are two names definitely off the list due to injury and 3-4 others who are injured and may not recover in time.

The CBs aren't a problem in the Senior, Smokey. They're heavy, ain't that quick (compared to the front runners) and certainly ain't that reliable - although they will certainly improve, particularly if they get 8 valve heads, which we all know is now acceptable if you paint 'em green!

(17-08-2009, 08:42 AM)superted Wrote: The CBs aren't a problem in the Senior, Smokey. They're heavy, ain't that quick (compared to the front runners) and certainly ain't that reliable - although they will certainly improve, particularly if they get 8 valve heads, which we all know is now acceptable if you paint 'em green!

I agree superted but my comments were based on observations of when there were big drops in entries and events that corresponded to that.
The first year the CB were allowed in entries were about normal (I suspect for many it was too late to change minds) the next year there was a noticeable drop in both junior and senior. Personally I think that many decided they didn’t want to race against them because of what they were rather than how competitive they were going to be. Much the same as happened at CRMC before the classes got split. If you weren’t going to ride in the junior why bother with the senior?
Then there was a significant drop after the introduction of the course licence.

As much as I agree with your sentiment about the 8 valve Paton’s (personally I don’t think they should be allowed except for the original and replicas of the 4 valve’s) the numbers were already a lot down on the 120 we used to see before they were first raced in the classic Manx.
Much the same with the junior in my first year I was in the last pair away riding No 84. You don’t get that many in the junior lightweight combined now. Of those that are in the junior half are CB Honda’s

I agree about K4s, but whilst arguing with my team boss about it he put the opposite point of view - that without K4s there wouldn't be an grid! Chicken and egg methinks

I think a good thing to introduce would be 'a maximum of two valve per cylinder'. Should level the playing field a tad.......off to load up sailing soon

I know somebody who put that argument forward and now it holds a bit of weight but when they were first allowed in there was a full field of 80 plus bikes in the junior. So we’ve gained 30 CB K4 at the expense of 50 other bikes. Doesn’t sound so good like that!
Another couple of years and you will have a race of 20 CB like you have a race of 20 Suzuki’s in the lightweight.
If they had let them in to help prop up dropping numbers then fair enough but it didn’t seem to happen that way.

Nice idea old man but it would also mean excluding the Weslake’s. My problem with the Paton’s is what appears to be one rule for them and one for everyone else!
There were 4 valve heads made for Norton’s, Matchless’s, Ducati’s and Aermacchi’s in the period but you can’t run a replica of them because they were one off or made and raced by riders/owners/engineers and generally not available. Yet if you have a “factory” replica Paton a bike that there were only a 1 or 2 offs the 8 valves and not generally available that is allowed! Yet you can modify them so they don’t even look like the bikes they are supposed to be replica’s of. I know you could have changed fairing’s and seat etc easily in the period when they were originally raced but if your going to allow them on the basis that they are replica I think they should at least look like the original.
Personally I think if your going to allow the Paton’s to be a general replica that can be modified in any way within the rules then the same privileges should be allowed to replicas of other low number bikes or special heads etc so long as you can prove it was run somewhere within the period and have a few pictures so it can be roughly compared to the original.

Pack tonight travel tomorrow, I can’t wait.

(18-08-2009, 02:05 PM)an old man returns Wrote: I think a good thing to introduce would be 'a maximum of two valve per cylinder'. Should level the playing field a tad.......off to load up sailing soon

Only 62 entries, without a doubt due to a number of factors, but the four that are the most likely contenders are:

Course Licence

Economy

A large proportion of Classic riders are "of a certain age", and are naturally retiring from racing- and there are a few, but not so many younger riders taking their place.

Younger rider need sponsors- after all how can a 19- 25 year old afford a Manx or the like.

As far as the Paton and MV scenario goes, we of course all have different views, and of course it is well documented where I stand on this. As far as I am aware however, the only Sponsor to categorically pull out of the Classic is Fred Warmsley, siting the Paton, although there has been many talk about it. In addition there are now a number of entries that weren't there before Steve rode the Paton there for the first time, so in fact increasing the Field.

So imposing a two valve per cylinder rule (and yes I am aware this is "tongue in cheek"!) will have the effect of reducing the field even further- is that a great idea ?

See you all over there, regards,

Carole

Could the classics possibly be split in to two seperate groups. Singles in one group and multi`s in the other, maybe with a 2 minute break between the 2 starts. I realise this might be difficult in the Junior Classics, already having the Lightweights to accomodate. 3 seperate races in 1, maybe not! It would be easy to seperate singles and multi`s in the senior classic, though it might upset a few Weslake & Triumph runners! Just a few ideas I`ve been having!!!
I guess, at the end of the day, time moves on and things have to change, maybe for the better, maybe not!
I went to the recent CRMC meeting at Brands after a break of a year or so, and was surprised to see the club is fast becoming The Post Classic Club, still enjoyed it, if it`s got 2 or 3 wheels, I always enjoy it!!
Best wishes Doug & Tom for a great Manx, can`t be worse than last year can it Doug!
Best wishes to everyone at this years Manx, most importantly, enjoy yourselves and keep it safe!
I`ll be at home, glued to Manx Radio on the internet!

Olie Linsdell on the Paton, Croft 2006

(19-08-2009, 01:13 PM)smokey125 Wrote: I know somebody who put that argument forward and now it holds a bit of weight but when they were first allowed in there was a full field of 80 plus bikes in the junior. So we’ve gained 30 CB K4 at the expense of 50 other bikes. Doesn’t sound so good like that!
Another couple of years and you will have a race of 20 CB like you have a race of 20 Suzuki’s in the lightweight.
If they had let them in to help prop up dropping numbers then fair enough but it didn’t seem to happen that way.

Nice idea old man but it would also mean excluding the Weslake’s. My problem with the Paton’s is what appears to be one rule for them and one for everyone else!
There were 4 valve heads made for Norton’s, Matchless’s, Ducati’s and Aermacchi’s in the period but you can’t run a replica of them because they were one off or made and raced by riders/owners/engineers and generally not available. Yet if you have a “factory” replica Paton a bike that there were only a 1 or 2 offs the 8 valves and not generally available that is allowed! Yet you can modify them so they don’t even look like the bikes they are supposed to be replica’s of. I know you could have changed fairing’s and seat etc easily in the period when they were originally raced but if your going to allow them on the basis that they are replica I think they should at least look like the original.
Personally I think if your going to allow the Paton’s to be a general replica that can be modified in any way within the rules then the same privileges should be allowed to replicas of other low number bikes or special heads etc so long as you can prove it was run somewhere within the period and have a few pictures so it can be roughly compared to the original.

Pack tonight travel tomorrow, I can’t wait.

Giuseppe Pattoni with 4 stroke and two stroke Patons- circa 72

Olie on the Paton at Croft 2006


Look pretty similar to me- at least as similar as the Manx Nortons, anyway!

Regards

Well, if you do a little research, there were DOHC engines and there were 3 and 4 valvers per cylinder about 100 years ago... making it all "work" happened over time.... I was hoping that when the new(er) classes got added this year, then DOHC 4 Valve per cylinder engines would get moved to that class... but alas, the new class is for larger displacement engines, so no change... yet. But as I stated last year I think... racing should be as "inclusive" as possible and not exclusive... that is how you increase the starting grids and the spectators. I love hearing the MV-3 it is an awesome bike..!!

I also suggest the races this year get run before jumping to any conclusions.... remember the new pit lane rule for this year... bikes like the Patons and the MV-3 have to pit for fuel, while the singles (due to making less power) do not have to pit. This could be a great equalizer..! Now last year when the race got shortened all bets were off... not sure about the weather this year yet..!! (not looking good so far...). But if you remember the 2007 MGP, look at what bike and rider finished 2nd in between the Patons..!! Given a 4 lap race, I still feel any of the top bikes can win..!! IMNSHO

Yes, it IS the economy that has fields down... this year I had to borrow money to make it, and I BARELY will make it... Gettting financial help this year was difficult, and my costs are much greater than most others, coming from the States. (bike shipping costs so far is $6,000 USD).

Oh yes, anyone sailing out of Liverpool on Friday that can help me with my spares..??? Can be room in your vehicle (not much) or a foot passenger willing to push a cart a few feet... I can offer a few pints in return..!!!

Cheers..!!

Ron - Let the Manx fun begin..!!!!!!!

Hi all,
Forgive me this is my first ever post!
I'm one of those no longer competing mgp racers. I raced in the classic races from 1988 to 2008 and I have to say that the major reason for no longer being there is the circuit licence. I have no interest whatsoever in circulating around mallory park in order to prove to the acu that I am able to race the mountain course, my record on the IOM speaks for itself, always able to qualify in time. Yes I was a holiday racer, but then so are many out there, we just do it because we love riding on the tt course.
The argument regarding both the Paton and MV did not affect my decision to retire, good riders always win races, and I was never that good!

Anyway I want to wish all competitors at this years Manx a safe and successfull event, enjoy yourselves but bring them home.

Regards Mark

I also believe that the main reason behind the lack of classic entries is the IOM course licence. Most riders in the classics do it for fun after all, and are happy enough just to ride the course and improve on their last years times and maybe go fast enough to get a replica. How stupid is it that a one day meeting at Lydden gets one signiture, a 2 day meeting at Lydden gets them one signiture, yet he can do 10 laps of practice on the IOM at the previous years Manx, do 3 laps of the race, break down at Gosvenors on the last lap and get NO signiture! A rediculous state of affairs! Good old ACU, eh.
Have a good 2 weeks everyone![/b]

(19-08-2009, 05:12 PM)markgant496 Wrote: Hi all,
Forgive me this is my first ever post!
I'm one of those no longer competing mgp racers. I raced in the classic races from 1988 to 2008 and I have to say that the major reason for no longer being there is the circuit licence. I have no interest whatsoever in circulating around mallory park in order to prove to the acu that I am able to race the mountain course, my record on the IOM speaks for itself, always able to qualify in time. Yes I was a holiday racer, but then so are many out there, we just do it because we love riding on the tt course.
The argument regarding both the Paton and MV did not affect my decision to retire, good riders always win races, and I was never that good!

Anyway I want to wish all competitors at this years Manx a safe and successfull event, enjoy yourselves but bring them home.

Regards Mark

Absolutely agree with you Mark, well put.
The course licence is a pain in the proverbial, and riding the short circuits really does not seem to have much relevance to the TT circuit. As most know, Steve has mainly in past years ridden only on the Island- his passion and as you could say, and has little interest in short circuit racing nowadays. He does so, with a few exceptions only to get the nescessary signatures, and hence the extra mountain course licence.

So I absolutely understand your reasons not to ride now, and I am sure there are many the same- all a great loss to the Manx.

[quote='Carole' pid='39973' dateline='1250684254']
As far as the Paton and MV scenario goes, we of course all have different views, and of course it is well documented where I stand on this. As far as I am aware however, the only Sponsor to categorically pull out of the Classic is Fred Warmsley, siting the Paton, although there has been many talk about it. In addition there are now a number of entries that weren't there before Steve rode the Paton there for the first time, so in fact increasing the Field.

Carole - was I the only one to chuckle when Fred the Fish (as a good friend of mine calls him) pulled out of sponsoring riders in the Classic Manx because of the "unfair" Paton?

His G50s bear the same resemblance to "proper" G50s as my Jack Russell does to a Westie!

Well, they're both dogs . . . . . . . . . . .

Never mind, speaking as one who was comprehensively lapped by Olie in the Tandragee this year, I hope it flies just as fast over the Mountain!!

(19-08-2009, 10:43 PM)larryd Wrote: [quote='Carole' pid='39973' dateline='1250684254']
As far as the Paton and MV scenario goes, we of course all have different views, and of course it is well documented where I stand on this. As far as I am aware however, the only Sponsor to categorically pull out of the Classic is Fred Warmsley, siting the Paton, although there has been many talk about it. In addition there are now a number of entries that weren't there before Steve rode the Paton there for the first time, so in fact increasing the Field.

Carole - was I the only one to chuckle when Fred the Fish (as a good friend of mine calls him) pulled out of sponsoring riders in the Classic Manx because of the "unfair" Paton?

His G50s bear the same resemblance to "proper" G50s as my Jack Russell does to a Westie!

Well, they're both dogs . . . . . . . . . . .

Never mind, speaking as one who was comprehensively lapped by Olie in the Tandragee this year, I hope it flies just as fast over the Mountain!!

Larry, I couldn't possibly comment on Freds very fast G50's - but I do think it's a shame that they're still not in the mix, whatever form they take- the more the merrier, nose and face springs to mind for some reason.

Thanks for your kind words about Olie and his Classic ride this year- he is still recovering from his TT off, so we'll see how he fares, but I know he'll give it his best shot as ever. He can't wait to get back to the Island and is really looking forward to the challenge, but as he's not raced since Scarborough, he and the Paton will probably have a natural handicap this year, which should please "an old Man returns" perhaps!.

Roll on Saturday!

My opinion on this has always been very clear, I like competition and I like the Patons and MVs, but I personally think the huge disparity in speed between a the manxes etc. and the Patons/MVs is down to a fundamental problem with the rules.......

The classic rules have always allowed 2 strokes upto 1967 and four strokes upto 1972. The reasons for these dates were to allow the people with Commandos etc (upto 1972) to race in the 750 class whilst stopping really fast 2-strokes from beating all the manx nortons, aermachis, seeleys etc in the other classes, since the development of these bikes had completely stopped by the late 60s. This rule worked perfectly because nobody was racing 'exotic' machines at the time.

The problem is that people are now replicating these 'exotic' machines and are looking at the rules and thinkning "what shall we make".........and the obvious answer is the most technologically advanced Paton, MV etc that the rules allow.....i.e the one that was being raced in 1972. The problem is that these bikes had been developed far beyond a manx norton because they were competing against really fast 2-strokes which are currently forbidden by the rules. Therefore they are racing in a completely different class to what they were developed to race in. Like flying a Harrier Jump jet in a battle against a sptifire.

The same goes for the honda K4 it was rubbish for racing when it was made because it couldnt get anywhere near a 350 Yamaha, but take away the 350 yamahas and they have a substancial advantage (though not as substancial as a Paton or MV).

I propose that the rules should be modified to make the cutoff date for everything 1967, and allow exceptions for special cases (commandos in the 750 class for example) then Paton would have to come back with a 2-valve head, the MV may have to change a bit (dont know much about MVs) and all the races would be fairer. Either that or allow 1972 2 strokes like oversize aircooled 350 yamahas, TR500 suzukis, and Konigs into the race.....as well as replica of full factory watercooled 2-strokes......