cargo Wrote:We are forever told that there are not enough 250s for a 250 race what about this for a class with lots of varity and open to clever engineers to build one offs.

250 two strokes
400 four stroke fours
650 twins
unlimited singles

Call it the Clubmans Junior TT and what the hell let those who do it ride in the Manx as well unless of course they've ridden in one of the commericially viable races

I've suggested something along these lines on another site

Cargo, without having seen your post I proposed almost exactly the same thing on iomtt.com! I've also suggested in another post that any MGP competitors that wished to do so could enter without being excluded from future MGPs, just as it was with the Production TTs. We seem to be thinking very much alike on this issue.

There are some very interesting singles around just now - 450cc moto-x engines in 125 rolling chassis'. I bet Robert Dunlop could have a bit of fun on something like that.

Don, as far as I understand it, the organisers of the TT, then the ACU, were offered the idea of running a Classic race at the TT in the early 1980's. They declined this offer, which was then taken up by the MGP organisers, the MMCC, and , when the Classic races at the MGP proved a success, the TT organisers became very jealous, and "suggested" to the Southern 100 club the idea of the Pre TT Classic races in 1988 (I read that somewhere, but, at the moment cant remember exactly where, but Im sure I'll find it if I look hard enough). So basically its a case of "They were offered it, they turned it down, somebody else took it up, it became a success, tough!" They probably wouldnt want to admit their cock-up in the first place, eh?

I have removed a posting which was personal and unacceptable. Please stick to facts and reasonable argument or your postings will be deleted. NO COMMENTS ABOUT INDIVIDUALS. Even lightly disguised.

How the hell can you have a debate, if youre not allwed to say anything?

You can have a debate about any topic/subject that you like.

However I remind everyone that while raising topics, or responding to those posted by others, if they constitute an attack on an individual (or individuals), however it may be dressed up, they will not be tolerated.

Keep to the facts being debated.

Inclusions of comments that may well be of a litigious personal nature that are confrontational and hostile will be immediately deleted.

Repetition of comments such as these will only initiate actions by myself to revoke all future postings by the transgressor(s).

Malcolm.

OK, can we get back to the debate. This is about whether it is feasible to have a 125/250/400 race at the TT, and if so, how?
What it is not is a discussion about individuals or their possible attitude or perceived part in the exclusion of such machines.
If we are going to have a race, we need to come up with strong arguments and facts to back them up.
Do we have enough 125/250/400 machines, and riders who wish to take part in the TT on them?
That's the nub of it.

So far it's not looking very likely with about 3 possible entries.......

Lets look at it another way who is still racing 125/250/400,s let me see,
Ok the following is a list of possibles.
1. Mark Parrett Honda CBR 400
2. Dave Madsen-Mygdal Honda RVF 400
3. John Burrows Honda CBR 400
4. Paul Dobbs Yamaha FZR 400
5. Steve Linsdell Yamaha FZR 400
6. Kevin Ago Murphy Honda CBR 400
7. Paul Corrin Yamaha FZR 400
8. Roy Richardson Honda RVF 400
9. Johnny Barton Yamaha FZR 400.
10. Darren Slous Yamaha FZR 400.
11. Robert J Price Yamaha FZR 400.
12. Robert A Price Honda VFR 400.
13. Mike Hose Kawasaki ZXR 400.
14. Manfred Vogal Kawasaki ZXR 400.
15. Tony Moss Honda CBR 400.
16. Henry Bell Yamaha FZR 400.
17. Richard Bairstow Honda CBR 400.
18. Wade Boyde Honda RVF 400.
19. Patric Martin Honda RVF 400.
20. Anita Buxton Kawasaki ZXR 400.
21. Heinz Chittka Honda CBR 400.
22. John Crellin Honda RVF 400.
23. Peter Magee Yamaha FZR 400.
The following top runners in the TT Big Bike classes who have rode 400 in the past 3 to 4 years who might be up for it again.

24. John MacGuinness Honda RVF 400 RLR.
25. Martin Finnegan Honda RVF 400.
26. Jim Hodson Yamaha FZR 400.
27. Jason Griffiths Yamaha FZR 400.
28. Ian Armstrong Kawasaki ZXR 400.
Then you have possible entrys from riders on Suzuki SV 650,s should the class be opened up to let them in.
Then of course you have the Dunlop Clan who would more than likley ride either 125,s or 250,s and their are a few riders like Bruce Anstey who i think would love to have a go on a 250 GP Bike again the list is endless if you look into it in debth and ask them riders them selves not everybody logs on to TT website .com you could Run the 125,s, 400,s and 650 twins in one class and the 250,s in the race as a seprate class like the old days 2 races in one these are my own thoughts i think its quite possible if it was put out to the riders and see what responce we get entry wise.....

Wow, Ago, that's excellent.
Let's think a bit about how we could approach them all. I am sure most of them don't have time to look at this website, but they might be interested in the idea.
Come on, folks, this is the stuff we are looking for.
Thanks Ago..I'll buy you a pint at the Manx!

Just to think about it ive only listed mostly 400cc riders their could be possibly at least 30 to 40 more between 125,s and 250.s ill talk to riders at the manx and get their feelings about it all cheers Ago...

Some sort of questionnaire dished out to all riders signing on at the Manx? - assuming that this idea is just a one-off for 2007 and that anyone entering would still be able to participate in any future MGP's that may (or may not) take place in future.
Probably a bit late in the day to be organising that one now.........but would target a few "possibles".

Possible 250 riders in no prticular order:

1. Ian Lougher
2. Chris Palmer
3. Nigel Beattie
4. Darren Lindsay
5. William Dunlop
6. Michael Dunlop
7. Sam Dunlop
8. Steve Kuenne
9. Kevin Strowger
10. Benny Jerzenbeck
11. Gavin Bell
12. Nigel John
13. Paul Owen
14. Bud Jackson
15. Mark Tyrell (if he's still competing)
16. Ted Roebuck (ditto)
17. Jason Griffiths
18. Barry Davidson
19. Jarno Holland
20. Davy Morgan
21. John Burrows
22. Brian Spooner
23. Pete Wakefield

That's just off the top of my head when I should have been working. I've made an assumption that MGP runners would be allowed in without being disqualified from the Manx (as per the Proddy TTs) and that some of these guys are actually interested! Add to that the TAS SV650s of Ryan, Bruce ( & Mark Miller?) - just an idea! I don't know about 125s but I think unlimited 4 stroke singles would work & stick Robert Dunlop on a 450 in a 125 frame. I'm sure there are more names that could be added to the above list that I've forgotten if anyone wants to chip in

A few more 'possibles' for a 250 race :-
1. Callum Ramsay
2. Victor Gilmore
3. Neil Richardson
4. Darren Burns
5. Trevor Keys
6. Rich Grinling
7. Dave Sells
8. Neil Kent
9. Jamie O'Brien
10. Elle Forrest
11.Dean Martin
12. Neil Chadwick
13. Dave Hedison
14. Neil Cudworth
15. Wally Kneale
16. Chris Barratt
17. Stephen Smith
18. Stuart Garton
19. Tom Snow

Apologies if I am out of date with any of the above riders!

As usually, ive sat & watched this thread/debate/discussion progress,
And as such, ive come to my own conclusions about it,

The paying fans want to see something different to watch for the 100th year of the TT, Not just the same classes that we have had for the last cple of years,

which brings me to one of the points that Paul brought up,

"The next point is, that if we want to run a race meeting, that attracts the manufacturers support and interest, which is what we have to do as a commercial, and not a purely enthusiast driven event, then we have to run classes that are applicable to what they are producing"

Without the TT these same companys wouldnt be where there are today, & for the sake of 1 year, why not let the public see what they want!!

As for the " Practice Problems ", after all these years, with a little bit of reworking the programme that problem is not a major one, its not that long ago, when you had 3 solo practise periods & a sidecar one

Stats can be made to look good,bad or whatever, its from what point you are trying to acheive a result,

The dropping of the 250 race was because of "small entries" but i & a few others know that in its last year the number of entries was higher than what was released to the public, Make from that what you will!

What i would like to do is, now that Ago/Sticky&Maggs have posted a list of possible riders, which looks like a very good field , Is for Paul to follow it through & lets see if something cant be done to make it work

If the carrot is dangled,to the guys listed they will come, instead of keeping the tuxworths of this world happy,

But there again Paul is busy,but has his finger on the pulse of what is happening racing wise, & wouldnt let any pressure from outside sources sway him?

this is not a dig at you paul, you have done a lot of good for the sport, but my worry is that if, like a lot of people before you, you get sucked into the power game,& you end up going with the flow!!

& as a final note add my name to the list of people that would love to ride again at the TT on a stroker,, if the acu deemed fit to give me a licence, but there agin ive got no road racing expereince

all the best
mike cain

This is my own point of View by the way. Paul Phillips is doing a cracking job and hes good at it. But i think he needs to look at the Bigger Picture ok if it is indeed only for the 100 Year of the TT Races the paying public need that something extra special. Its sad to think we lost the greatest TT Rider of our time or maybe of all time on the faithfull day in July 2000.
Theirs always a big if. If Joey was still around today i think we might still have a 250 or a 125 TT Race or even both.

I think we need to give the fans what they want a bit of something different the TT today revolves around Production based racing.
Call the Class the Leighweight TT and as Cargo said open it up to Singles of up to 800cc, 4 Cylinder 4 strokes of up to 400cc, V twins up to 650cc,
250cc Production based 2 stroke twins and 125cc GP bikes or something along them lines with no restrictions. Run it as one race if you look back at the singles , supersport 400 and 125 classes they all have lap records within a few miles an hour of eachother .

As for practice,s you could maybe do it like this on the first saturday night split the sessions then let all the bigger bikes like supersports and superbikes have monday night to themselves and then split tuesday night and so on through the week till the friday. As i said earlier these are just my own thoughts on the subject .

Just looking through my collection of programmes the lap speeds were as follows 125cc 110mph+ Singles 112mph + and 400cc 112mph+ so theirs not a lot between them all really.

But as my late father used to say if My Aunt had test tickles She,d be my Uncle.
I dont know for sure but i think the fans would like to see something a little different even if it is only to celebrate the 100th year of this great event.
I think it would be a great race if not just very interesting for the fans.

I agree that if Joey were still with us there would still be a TT for proper race bikes...

As you'll see from one of my earlier posts, I proposed exactly the same formula as Cargo on iomtt.com, not having seen Cargo's idea (he gets the credit!) as Paul Philips was active on the thread. I'm quite certain that with that formula you could put a decent grid together. Paul has come back with various reasons why not backed by statistics but as we all probably know, you can manipulate stats to say whatever you want them to say.

A problem I've had with the TT over the last few years has been the 'sameness'. This does not just apply to the races. You get the same prom entertainment, the same bands, the same comedians, the same guy who looks nothing like Freddy Mercury pretending to be Queen...you get the picture. It's almost as if no-one wants to apply any thought or try and do something hard - always take the easy option.

I'm absolutely sure a race for 250s with support from 400s, SV650s and singles would go down well with the race fans and I'm equally sure a solution could be found re: practice. Bring back morning sessions and expand Thursday. Run an afternoon session, break for a couple of hours and say a further 90 mins in the evening. Make the after-race practice sessions qualifiers for this class and run it on the Friday before the Senior.

I'm making no critiscism of Paul Philips as all of the chicanery that resulted in the classes in question being banned happened before his time but the organisers need to realise that there are other people they need to respond to besides the manufacturers. That being us - the 'punters'

I dont think we need to worry about who gets the credit for the idea i think we need to convince the powers that be that it would be good to have something different for the 100th Year of TT Racing something the fans can talk about for years to come and remember the racing and the guys and girls who made up the grid it could be a very close affair.
As for the 250,s you could run them in a race within a race or let them race with the junior Supersport guys . I think in today climate a top 250 Rider could run at the front of the 600 class dont forget that the lap record for 250,s is 118 mph and i think a top runner like John McGuinness or Bruce Anstey could lap at over 120mph on a good 250 machine.
But lets see if we can get some support on this idea before putting it to the powers that be.........

I think putting 250s in with the 600s is a non-starter as that's what did for them in the first place. It would also take a lot of potential riders away - think how many 250 runners also ride 600s. I'd like to see 250s be the focal point of the race with a separate 400/singles/SV650 class in the same race (I'd imagine those three classes would be fairly similar in lap times). But like you say Ago, support needs to be drummed up.

...........
20. Brian Mateer
21. Norman Rank
22. Mike Cain
23. Adrian McFarland
24. Maurice Walker
25. Mark Waddell
26. Peter Burgess
27. Derek Cohen

..........
If there's no 250 race at the TT next year, don't let anybody tell you that it's because there aren't enough bikes about!!! :roll: